For the first - corporate worship - I think most of our disagreement comes from cultural factors. When you say, "Everyone worshipping God sincerely" I look around and see 85% of my church doing just that. Frankly, there's little or no pressure here to be anywhere in particular on Sunday morning - the people in church (other than the odd spouse or whatnot) are there because *they* want to be there. I honestly expect to stand next to you and a million or five other people and sing praise songs in Heaven, jointly worshipping our Lord. So YES - that's what I meant. There is definitely a vibe there, worshipping with other Christians, that is different than the vibe I get in my 'prayer closet'. I wouldn't want to do without either of them. Now, do we have to identify with that congregation? No... I don't think we do. It can be helpful, for the reasons I posted a few go-rounds ago, but not at all necessary.
We are, and continue to be, at total odds with OSAS. I am not sure that salvation comes at repeating a phrase with no heart behind it - I think we can agree there wholeheartedly - but once you have been given salvation, it is yours forever. When you say, That's what once-saved-always-saved reminds me of. That there is a prize awarded to everyone who runs the race. 1 Cor. 9: Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? I think of works based salvation. We aren't running the race to be saved!! We are running the race to receive awards in Heaven, to receive the "well done, good and faithful servant" from the lips of our Savior. *Not* everyone will receive a prize. We are not promised equality in Heaven, we are promised justice. Our good works will be known, and the chaff will be burnt off before we get there. It would be the worst kind of mockery for me to be given the same award as someone who was beaten to death for our Savior's name.
Which brings me to more cheery and agreeable topics... :) What do you *want* in Heaven? I know the first thing I am looking forward to is getting rid of the old nature - getting rid of the capability to hurt those around me, to do wrong, to misstep. I'm looking forward to a new body (hopefully one that looks like I think I *ought* to look). I'm hoping for eons to sit under a tree near a street of gold, talking to my friends and watching Heaven roll past.
Showing posts with label Heaven. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Heaven. Show all posts
Thursday, February 28, 2008
Wednesday, November 7, 2007
We're agreeing again... :)
At least about the "age of accountability" varying. I think that children *can* give their hearts to Christ before getting to that age, though. I remember getting saved... I remember the story about the resurrection and Jesus knocking at the door of your heart. A story I'd heard before, but that time it clicked, and I realised He was knocking at the door to MY heart, that this was about ME. I went home and prayed to let Him in by myself... and it was over a year later that I decided to be baptised (on my own, surprised my mom... and it's the only altar call I've ever answered). So... influenced? Yes. I went to church and Sunday school and read Bible stories with my mom. But no one sat me down and said, 'You need to do this now, you need to make this choice". It was just there. Not even directed at me particularly, just part of the learning. And my other "salvation prayers"? None of them made me feel any different. That one did. The only other prayer that changed my life was the one where I surrendered and threw Jesus the car keys. I suppose you could (and some do) say that only surrendered folks are truly saved... but I don't think so.
I very much respect the Soviet Mennonites and the martyrs. I don't know if I mentioned to you that I spent a year in China as a child? So my parents had many friends who were allowed to leave China with the same understanding... "we have your relatives, you'd better come home". Some of them didn't anyway, accepting that meant they'd never GO back. (And twenty years later and much prosperity on both ends, the government relented). I understand that environment of threat. We were all followed, all assigned "official friends", our mail was read... horrible. (And yes, even eight year old me had official friends aka spies).
Martyrs... there are still martyrs. Some are pacifists like your family in Russia. Some are missionaries. Some are just folks holding their heads up for Christ. And every one of them deserves the white robes and honor that they'll receive in Heaven. I feel ashamed of my luxuries and life of ease when I compare myself to them.
Further age-of-accountability thoughts: I tend to think it's somewhere in the twenties, and that it varies from person to person. One person might be really tuned into religion and really get that there is a choice to be made and another could barely be aware of it at all. An interesting thought on this and Heaven, as so very much of humanity has died well before reaching that age (miscarriage, abortion, childhood illness, infant mortality), Heaven must be FULL of children! I wonder if they're given "adult" bodies? It will be interesting to meet someone who was raised at the foot of the Throne.
I very much respect the Soviet Mennonites and the martyrs. I don't know if I mentioned to you that I spent a year in China as a child? So my parents had many friends who were allowed to leave China with the same understanding... "we have your relatives, you'd better come home". Some of them didn't anyway, accepting that meant they'd never GO back. (And twenty years later and much prosperity on both ends, the government relented). I understand that environment of threat. We were all followed, all assigned "official friends", our mail was read... horrible. (And yes, even eight year old me had official friends aka spies).
Martyrs... there are still martyrs. Some are pacifists like your family in Russia. Some are missionaries. Some are just folks holding their heads up for Christ. And every one of them deserves the white robes and honor that they'll receive in Heaven. I feel ashamed of my luxuries and life of ease when I compare myself to them.
Further age-of-accountability thoughts: I tend to think it's somewhere in the twenties, and that it varies from person to person. One person might be really tuned into religion and really get that there is a choice to be made and another could barely be aware of it at all. An interesting thought on this and Heaven, as so very much of humanity has died well before reaching that age (miscarriage, abortion, childhood illness, infant mortality), Heaven must be FULL of children! I wonder if they're given "adult" bodies? It will be interesting to meet someone who was raised at the foot of the Throne.
Tuesday, October 30, 2007
Christ, Himself, Alone
I had tried to post earlier and my computer was 'doing funny things,' as the techies say and then I got busy with all the little trick-or-treaters.
So on to Heaven and your question of, if I haven't forgotten all the brilliant insights I had at the time when I first started writing this.
When I was a little girl, the idea of Heaven terrified me but the alternative, being Hell, as I understood it, was even worse, so as far as I was concerned, the 'choice' was forced on me. Of course I had to pick Heaven. I felt very bad and guilty about these thoughts which I had even then. When I was growing up, love of God was not emphasized nearly as much as the alternative, Hell. For some odd reason some pastors think that they can scare people into the arms of God. In my blasphemous thoughts, I felt that well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
And so it was with me and my idea of God. I felt that I had to love Him because otherwise I would end up in Hell. So I feared God but I didn't love Him, for Himself alone. I think a lot of people who have turned against traditional churches have turned away for exactly that reason. People - most people? - resent feeling they are being forced into a corner.
And with regards to wanting to be in Heaven because we will see our loved ones and because there will be no more pain - firstly, we know that without God, there is nothing but pain, so really when we look forward to Heaven because there is neither death nor pain nor injustice, although maybe it seems at first glance that we are looking forward to Heaven only because of that, we aren't. We are looking forward to a place where there is no injustice, no death, and where we are reunited with our loved ones, and by definition, such a place, such thoughts have to include God. So God is not left out of the equation.
I think that is almost silly, when pastors tell us we were created to love God and praise Him. What the heck does that mean? Those words haven't any meaning at all because no one can tell us what they mean by that. Here we are, going through all this crap, and someone Up There claims that He created us to love Him. I think why we were created is a mystery, and no one has come up with a good answer, and so they trot out trite, superficial sayings and for some reason, expect that to comfort or satisfy us.
I believe it was Jesus (maybe it was God) who said that or maybe it was one of the apostles who said something along the lines of we didn't choose Him - He chose us. In fact, God in the OT reminds Israel repeatedly of that - that they didn't choose Him - He chose them, and not because they were so much better than the rest of us. He doesn't really get into His reasons for choosing Israel. He just says it wasn't because they were so much better than everyone else.
And then somewhere else in the Bible, it says that we love Him because He first loved us. His love comes first, not ours. Which makes perfect sense, since He is the First Cause of everything.
When we are forced to take a position due to the threat of dire consequences, how can we love freely? I don't believe that God wants to hold us hostage in a love me, or else way. That's not love. Love is something personal, that is given freely.
I've often wondered why children have so many nightmares. I don't have nearly the number of nightmares I had as a child. I can remember quite clearly the emotions I had when I realised, as a child, that one day my parents were going to die. One day everyone was going to die. Including me. And it seems to me that my nightmares sprung out of that fear. I used to try and plan what I would do if my parents died. I wanted to be with them. Then I was told that suicide would also take you to Hell. So you were stuck in this life because if you killed yourself thinking that you would be reunited in Heaven with your loved ones, well, God had a trick up His sleeve, because suicides, I was taught, went to Hell. Catch-22.
It is kind of hard to love a God like that for Himself, and not for fear of His threats so it is only natural that when we think of Heaven, and how much we want to be there, He isn't foremost in our minds. Our loved ones are.
I am trying to think just how and when it began that I loved God for Himself and I am not really sure. Somehow it began first with a verse, I think it is in Genesis, where it says, "Will not the Lord God do that which is right?"
And then I thought that yes, yes He would. He would do that which is right. He is the First Cause of justice as well. It is He from whom we get our ideas about justice. We (people) are very stupid in a lot of ways, but we all have a sense of justice, the moral law within, as the philosopher Immanuel Kant put it. Even the sociopath knows what is right and what is wrong - he just doesn't care.
I don't believe that God has any tricks up His sleeve. I don't know why He made us. I think He made us in part for companionship. Maybe angels are not free to choose to love him. Or maybe, because angels must know more than we and less than God, the very fact that they have more knowledge of Him makes the love that angels feel for God, less than faith - the faith that sees through a glass darkly, but not face to face. Maybe God wanted to create a thinking creature and see whether such a creature, who did not see God on His throne daily, could still see the goodness of God shining through the darkness in this world, and still, without ever having seen Him, believe that He must exist.
And somewhere along the line I realised that although I wasn't perfect, and in fact, my every imperfect way caused me such shame, that I don't have to be perfect. Jesus knows I am trying. That my prayer is more along the lines of I believe. Help Thou mine unbelief.
And somewhere along the line, I came to the point where seeing my loved ones alone, would not be enough. I want to see God face to face. I feel as though I have a world of tears bottled up that won't get out until I see Him and He explains to me the reasons for everything. I think that when we finally get to that place, that is how everyone will feel and that is what is behind that verse in the Bible, when it says that God will wipe away all tears from our eyes. First there has to be the crying before the tears can be wiped away.
And I believe that He is going to give us a reason and it is going to make perfect sense and the reason has to be a really good reason, a reason so good that all the pain of all people in the world at all times, is somehow justified by this reason. What that can be I really don't know. But I believe that it exists. And I can say, that even without my loved ones, I want to be there and I want to see Him, first of all.
I hope this post makes some sense. I feel as if I have rambled all over the place without quite connecting my thoughts the way that I want to.
Layla
So on to Heaven and your question of, if I haven't forgotten all the brilliant insights I had at the time when I first started writing this.
When I was a little girl, the idea of Heaven terrified me but the alternative, being Hell, as I understood it, was even worse, so as far as I was concerned, the 'choice' was forced on me. Of course I had to pick Heaven. I felt very bad and guilty about these thoughts which I had even then. When I was growing up, love of God was not emphasized nearly as much as the alternative, Hell. For some odd reason some pastors think that they can scare people into the arms of God. In my blasphemous thoughts, I felt that well, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
And so it was with me and my idea of God. I felt that I had to love Him because otherwise I would end up in Hell. So I feared God but I didn't love Him, for Himself alone. I think a lot of people who have turned against traditional churches have turned away for exactly that reason. People - most people? - resent feeling they are being forced into a corner.
And with regards to wanting to be in Heaven because we will see our loved ones and because there will be no more pain - firstly, we know that without God, there is nothing but pain, so really when we look forward to Heaven because there is neither death nor pain nor injustice, although maybe it seems at first glance that we are looking forward to Heaven only because of that, we aren't. We are looking forward to a place where there is no injustice, no death, and where we are reunited with our loved ones, and by definition, such a place, such thoughts have to include God. So God is not left out of the equation.
I think that is almost silly, when pastors tell us we were created to love God and praise Him. What the heck does that mean? Those words haven't any meaning at all because no one can tell us what they mean by that. Here we are, going through all this crap, and someone Up There claims that He created us to love Him. I think why we were created is a mystery, and no one has come up with a good answer, and so they trot out trite, superficial sayings and for some reason, expect that to comfort or satisfy us.
I believe it was Jesus (maybe it was God) who said that or maybe it was one of the apostles who said something along the lines of we didn't choose Him - He chose us. In fact, God in the OT reminds Israel repeatedly of that - that they didn't choose Him - He chose them, and not because they were so much better than the rest of us. He doesn't really get into His reasons for choosing Israel. He just says it wasn't because they were so much better than everyone else.
And then somewhere else in the Bible, it says that we love Him because He first loved us. His love comes first, not ours. Which makes perfect sense, since He is the First Cause of everything.
When we are forced to take a position due to the threat of dire consequences, how can we love freely? I don't believe that God wants to hold us hostage in a love me, or else way. That's not love. Love is something personal, that is given freely.
I've often wondered why children have so many nightmares. I don't have nearly the number of nightmares I had as a child. I can remember quite clearly the emotions I had when I realised, as a child, that one day my parents were going to die. One day everyone was going to die. Including me. And it seems to me that my nightmares sprung out of that fear. I used to try and plan what I would do if my parents died. I wanted to be with them. Then I was told that suicide would also take you to Hell. So you were stuck in this life because if you killed yourself thinking that you would be reunited in Heaven with your loved ones, well, God had a trick up His sleeve, because suicides, I was taught, went to Hell. Catch-22.
It is kind of hard to love a God like that for Himself, and not for fear of His threats so it is only natural that when we think of Heaven, and how much we want to be there, He isn't foremost in our minds. Our loved ones are.
I am trying to think just how and when it began that I loved God for Himself and I am not really sure. Somehow it began first with a verse, I think it is in Genesis, where it says, "Will not the Lord God do that which is right?"
And then I thought that yes, yes He would. He would do that which is right. He is the First Cause of justice as well. It is He from whom we get our ideas about justice. We (people) are very stupid in a lot of ways, but we all have a sense of justice, the moral law within, as the philosopher Immanuel Kant put it. Even the sociopath knows what is right and what is wrong - he just doesn't care.
I don't believe that God has any tricks up His sleeve. I don't know why He made us. I think He made us in part for companionship. Maybe angels are not free to choose to love him. Or maybe, because angels must know more than we and less than God, the very fact that they have more knowledge of Him makes the love that angels feel for God, less than faith - the faith that sees through a glass darkly, but not face to face. Maybe God wanted to create a thinking creature and see whether such a creature, who did not see God on His throne daily, could still see the goodness of God shining through the darkness in this world, and still, without ever having seen Him, believe that He must exist.
And somewhere along the line I realised that although I wasn't perfect, and in fact, my every imperfect way caused me such shame, that I don't have to be perfect. Jesus knows I am trying. That my prayer is more along the lines of I believe. Help Thou mine unbelief.
And somewhere along the line, I came to the point where seeing my loved ones alone, would not be enough. I want to see God face to face. I feel as though I have a world of tears bottled up that won't get out until I see Him and He explains to me the reasons for everything. I think that when we finally get to that place, that is how everyone will feel and that is what is behind that verse in the Bible, when it says that God will wipe away all tears from our eyes. First there has to be the crying before the tears can be wiped away.
And I believe that He is going to give us a reason and it is going to make perfect sense and the reason has to be a really good reason, a reason so good that all the pain of all people in the world at all times, is somehow justified by this reason. What that can be I really don't know. But I believe that it exists. And I can say, that even without my loved ones, I want to be there and I want to see Him, first of all.
I hope this post makes some sense. I feel as if I have rambled all over the place without quite connecting my thoughts the way that I want to.
Layla
Monday, October 29, 2007
Mosquitoes in Heaven
Good morning, Hearth.
Well, now, about seasons - I certainly did understand you to mean seasons as in leaves blowing around, and fall and winter but, duh! I forgot I was talking to a California person. Obviously when you think about seasons it isn't going to be remotely what I think when I hear seasons - I think of a bitterly cold fall wind, snaking around your body, looking for gaps in jackets, mitts and boots. Being snowed in for months at a time. Life in the igloo ;-^
Just to clarify - to you seasons on earth simply means that we aren't harvesting the same thing all the time? Gathering various kinds of fruit means seasons to you? As in radish season, pea season and strawberry season and corn season? Singing season, visiting season and praising season?
You say that you have a notion that there will be weather seasons of some vague sort but you don't say whether you think these seasons are in Heaven or on earth, or if Heaven and Earth in the new, redeemed world are one and the same thing. Revelations 21 says that there will be no more sea and in reference to sunlight, it states that (v23, NIRV) The city does not need the sun or moon to shine on it. God's glory is its light and the Lamb is its lamp. (v24) The nations will walk by the light of the city. The kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut because there will be no night there....
It seems to me that John is writing about an earthly place due to the fact that he writes about the kings of the earth, but when he says that God's glory is its light, does he mean that God's glory is its only light and that there is no sun and no moon? He does say that there is no night there. Or is the city of God somehow separate from the rest of the earth in the sense that the rest of the redeemed earth has both a sun and a moon?
Okay, now on to flies and mosquitoes. I am sure this is just a little thing and I said it in a joking way but the fact is, that it used to bother me endlessly as a child, that I could not reconcile mosquitoes with God. And flies of course. Other things too, but mainly mosquitoes and flies. If I believe that animals have immortal souls, then how can I draw the line at mosquitoes and flies? The way I understand you, you believe that blood-sucking things are evil but I don't think that God makes anything evil.
We are told that both man's nature and the nature of animals will undergo a radical change, in that animals, including meat-eaters will eat grass instead of each other. So a similar change is possible for mosquitoes and vampire bats. However, possible though that may be, that mosquitoes undergo a change so that they don't suck blood and bother people, I just can't imagine what God would do with all these mosquitoes and flies, reformed or not. Sometimes it is the little things that are the stumbling block.
I don't read too much into the fact that Lucifer is called the Lord of the Flies because Gentiles are also called dogs, an animal for which ancient Israel seemed to have as much distaste as I do for mosquitoes. I think Lord of the Flies is a figure of speech, since flies are associated with death. And dogs, in the Bible, are associated with uncleanliness, as in they eat anything and then lick their butts. So that's what us Gentiles are compared to. Pretty picture, no?
Head-coverings. Ummmm. Well, what I was hoping for when it comes to Heaven was long beautiful, pitch black hair that never has a Bad Hair Day. But as to head coverings for women now, I am not sure what I think.
In the Mennonite church I grew up in - way back when - women covered their heads with shawls or hats on Sunday when they went to church. Some denominations of women covered their heads with a small version of the skull cap at all times. Usually it was placed over a bun. The denomination I grew up in didn't do that - head coverings in the form of a hat (modern hats) were strictly for Sunday church and worn only by baptised women. Nowadays most church-going Mennonites don't wear anything on their heads in church.
Frankly, I think the apostle Paul was more confusing than anything when he said that (Cor 11:6) What if a woman does not cover her head? She should have her hair cut off. But it is shameful for her to cut her hair or shave it off. So she should cover her head.
In the same chapter, (v 13-14) he says, ...Is it proper for a woman to pray to God without covering her head? Suppose a man has long hair. Doesn't the very nature of things teach you that it is shameful?
Paul has never made an ounce of sense to me with this argument. He seems to say that nature itself teaches us, as is the phrasing in the KJV, that it is a shame for a man to have long hair, and yet when you observe nature, it is the male lion that has the mane, not the lioness. It is the male peacock that has the beautiful feathers, not the peahen. It is often the males in nature that have the more brightly coloured plumage, not the female. So what is Paul going on about?
Nature, as far as I can see, does not teach us one single thing about what is the proper length of hair for a man or for a woman.
Furthermore, in the Old Testament, the Nazirite men deliberately did not cut their hair because they were consecrated to the Lord.
Numbers 6: The Lord said to Moses, Speak to the people of Israel. Say to them, Suppose a man or woman wants to make a special promise. They want to set themselves apart to the Lord for a certain period of time. They want to be Nazirites.
3. Then they must not drink any kind of wine. They must not drink vinegar that is made out of wine of any kind. They must not drink grape juice. They must not eat grapes or raisins.
4. As long as they are Nazirites, they must not eat anything the grapevine produces. They must not even eat the seeds or skins of grapes.
5. They must not use razors on their heads. They must not cut their hair during the whole time they have set themselves apart to the Lord. They must be holy until that time is over. They must let the hair on their heads grow long. And they must not go near a dead body that whole time.
Samson (Judges 13) was a Nazirite promised to God by his mother before his birth. He had long hair, until of course, Delilah made him cut it.
So I don't understand at all why the ideal of the Nazirite is contradicted (apparently) by the apostle Paul. Or why he would go even further and say 'nature' teaches us these things, when I know of nothing in nature that teaches us that men should have short hair and women, long.
Layla
Well, now, about seasons - I certainly did understand you to mean seasons as in leaves blowing around, and fall and winter but, duh! I forgot I was talking to a California person. Obviously when you think about seasons it isn't going to be remotely what I think when I hear seasons - I think of a bitterly cold fall wind, snaking around your body, looking for gaps in jackets, mitts and boots. Being snowed in for months at a time. Life in the igloo ;-^
Just to clarify - to you seasons on earth simply means that we aren't harvesting the same thing all the time? Gathering various kinds of fruit means seasons to you? As in radish season, pea season and strawberry season and corn season? Singing season, visiting season and praising season?
You say that you have a notion that there will be weather seasons of some vague sort but you don't say whether you think these seasons are in Heaven or on earth, or if Heaven and Earth in the new, redeemed world are one and the same thing. Revelations 21 says that there will be no more sea and in reference to sunlight, it states that (v23, NIRV) The city does not need the sun or moon to shine on it. God's glory is its light and the Lamb is its lamp. (v24) The nations will walk by the light of the city. The kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. Its gates will never be shut because there will be no night there....
It seems to me that John is writing about an earthly place due to the fact that he writes about the kings of the earth, but when he says that God's glory is its light, does he mean that God's glory is its only light and that there is no sun and no moon? He does say that there is no night there. Or is the city of God somehow separate from the rest of the earth in the sense that the rest of the redeemed earth has both a sun and a moon?
Okay, now on to flies and mosquitoes. I am sure this is just a little thing and I said it in a joking way but the fact is, that it used to bother me endlessly as a child, that I could not reconcile mosquitoes with God. And flies of course. Other things too, but mainly mosquitoes and flies. If I believe that animals have immortal souls, then how can I draw the line at mosquitoes and flies? The way I understand you, you believe that blood-sucking things are evil but I don't think that God makes anything evil.
We are told that both man's nature and the nature of animals will undergo a radical change, in that animals, including meat-eaters will eat grass instead of each other. So a similar change is possible for mosquitoes and vampire bats. However, possible though that may be, that mosquitoes undergo a change so that they don't suck blood and bother people, I just can't imagine what God would do with all these mosquitoes and flies, reformed or not. Sometimes it is the little things that are the stumbling block.
I don't read too much into the fact that Lucifer is called the Lord of the Flies because Gentiles are also called dogs, an animal for which ancient Israel seemed to have as much distaste as I do for mosquitoes. I think Lord of the Flies is a figure of speech, since flies are associated with death. And dogs, in the Bible, are associated with uncleanliness, as in they eat anything and then lick their butts. So that's what us Gentiles are compared to. Pretty picture, no?
Head-coverings. Ummmm. Well, what I was hoping for when it comes to Heaven was long beautiful, pitch black hair that never has a Bad Hair Day. But as to head coverings for women now, I am not sure what I think.
In the Mennonite church I grew up in - way back when - women covered their heads with shawls or hats on Sunday when they went to church. Some denominations of women covered their heads with a small version of the skull cap at all times. Usually it was placed over a bun. The denomination I grew up in didn't do that - head coverings in the form of a hat (modern hats) were strictly for Sunday church and worn only by baptised women. Nowadays most church-going Mennonites don't wear anything on their heads in church.
Frankly, I think the apostle Paul was more confusing than anything when he said that (Cor 11:6) What if a woman does not cover her head? She should have her hair cut off. But it is shameful for her to cut her hair or shave it off. So she should cover her head.
In the same chapter, (v 13-14) he says, ...Is it proper for a woman to pray to God without covering her head? Suppose a man has long hair. Doesn't the very nature of things teach you that it is shameful?
Paul has never made an ounce of sense to me with this argument. He seems to say that nature itself teaches us, as is the phrasing in the KJV, that it is a shame for a man to have long hair, and yet when you observe nature, it is the male lion that has the mane, not the lioness. It is the male peacock that has the beautiful feathers, not the peahen. It is often the males in nature that have the more brightly coloured plumage, not the female. So what is Paul going on about?
Nature, as far as I can see, does not teach us one single thing about what is the proper length of hair for a man or for a woman.
Furthermore, in the Old Testament, the Nazirite men deliberately did not cut their hair because they were consecrated to the Lord.
Numbers 6: The Lord said to Moses, Speak to the people of Israel. Say to them, Suppose a man or woman wants to make a special promise. They want to set themselves apart to the Lord for a certain period of time. They want to be Nazirites.
3. Then they must not drink any kind of wine. They must not drink vinegar that is made out of wine of any kind. They must not drink grape juice. They must not eat grapes or raisins.
4. As long as they are Nazirites, they must not eat anything the grapevine produces. They must not even eat the seeds or skins of grapes.
5. They must not use razors on their heads. They must not cut their hair during the whole time they have set themselves apart to the Lord. They must be holy until that time is over. They must let the hair on their heads grow long. And they must not go near a dead body that whole time.
Samson (Judges 13) was a Nazirite promised to God by his mother before his birth. He had long hair, until of course, Delilah made him cut it.
So I don't understand at all why the ideal of the Nazirite is contradicted (apparently) by the apostle Paul. Or why he would go even further and say 'nature' teaches us these things, when I know of nothing in nature that teaches us that men should have short hair and women, long.
Layla
Sunday, October 28, 2007
Seasons in the Son
Dear Hearth,
I thought that I would simply continue an aspect of the conversation on Heaven we have been having on email before I got this crazy idea that it might be interesting for others to read our discussions, coming as we do from different, yet similar theologies.
We were discussing Heaven, and whether animals have souls and whether they would all be there or just some specially loved pets, and whether pigs have wings, to quote Lewis Carroll. I suppose one of the reasons we wonder about that is because we just can't envision mosquitoes in Heaven, even if they don't suck blood. I can't envision all those mosquitoes, all the mosquitoes that have ever lived, in Heaven. Or flies. If it isn't too blasphemous of me to say so, I have wondered if maybe they just go to Hell. Maybe Hell is a mosquito or a fly's idea of Heaven anyway, so it wouldn't be like they were being tormented, but rather that they are part of the torment.
But I can't imagine that God would have gone to all the trouble of making animals, only to discard them, their life essence, their spirit. He could have made the world without animals, if the only point of the world was man. Or, if the argument is that God knew, being God, that man would eventually fall from grace, and so He prepared animals in anticipation of the Fall so that we would have another form of companionship after He no longer walked in the Garden with us, or so that we would have clothing and food, He could also have made animals after the Fall - I mean, if that was their only purpose.
He made the rainbow appear in the sky after Noah's Flood, and we are meant to see it as a sign to this day. It seems to me that if animals have no real purpose beyond this world, then He would have made them afterwards, and they too would serve as a sort of sign, a sign of our Fall.
God has also used animals to reprove us, as when Balaam's ass remonstrated with Balaam as to why, after years of service, he was being beaten. I wonder if the point of the story - or one of the points - was to make us see what animals would say, if they did speak, and to impress on us that animals do feel, that they are not simply soulless creatures for us to abuse as we will. Balaam's ass speaks the way any person would, if they felt they were unjustly abused.
God also says, somewhere in the Bible, "a righteous man regards the life of his beast" and tells us not to "muzzle the ox that treads out the corn."
Now with regards to one thing you said in your last email, about Heaven having seasons - you quoted Revelations 22: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life. It was as clear as crystal. It flowed from the throne of God and of the Lamb. It flowed down the middle of the city's main street. (v2) On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit. It's fruit was ripe every month. The leaves of the tree bring healing to the nations (NIRV) for your thoughts that Heaven has seasons.
It seems to me that this chapter in Revelations is talking about the new earth, since in the chapter preceding chapter 22, John writes, I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem. It was coming down out of heaven from God.
I understand Heaven to be up and we are shown the Holy City coming down. Do you think that the new Heavens and the New Earth are one and the same thing?
Ezekiel 47 references the same vision, and I always understood it to mean the earth, not Heaven, although Ezekiel's vision, makes no specific mention of a particularly new Heaven and a new Earth. But he does write in verse 12, Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not dry up. The trees will always have fruit on them. Every month they will bear fruit. The water from the temple will flow to them. Their fruit will be good for food. And their leaves will be used for healing.
I wonder if the word new in association with the redeemed earth is meant as a descriptor of a world that is so unlike the world we live in that it might as well be new. We are also back to the subject of animals and their place in creation and redemption since we have lions lying down with lambs and children playing on the holes of vipers, and the Lamb of God living among us, and we are told, there will be no more night, and we will not need the light of the sun.
All of that sounds so mysterious to me, that mixture of animals and relations that we do understand, with the idea of no more sun. Is this new earth even a planet anymore?
What do you think?
love, Layla
I thought that I would simply continue an aspect of the conversation on Heaven we have been having on email before I got this crazy idea that it might be interesting for others to read our discussions, coming as we do from different, yet similar theologies.
We were discussing Heaven, and whether animals have souls and whether they would all be there or just some specially loved pets, and whether pigs have wings, to quote Lewis Carroll. I suppose one of the reasons we wonder about that is because we just can't envision mosquitoes in Heaven, even if they don't suck blood. I can't envision all those mosquitoes, all the mosquitoes that have ever lived, in Heaven. Or flies. If it isn't too blasphemous of me to say so, I have wondered if maybe they just go to Hell. Maybe Hell is a mosquito or a fly's idea of Heaven anyway, so it wouldn't be like they were being tormented, but rather that they are part of the torment.
But I can't imagine that God would have gone to all the trouble of making animals, only to discard them, their life essence, their spirit. He could have made the world without animals, if the only point of the world was man. Or, if the argument is that God knew, being God, that man would eventually fall from grace, and so He prepared animals in anticipation of the Fall so that we would have another form of companionship after He no longer walked in the Garden with us, or so that we would have clothing and food, He could also have made animals after the Fall - I mean, if that was their only purpose.
He made the rainbow appear in the sky after Noah's Flood, and we are meant to see it as a sign to this day. It seems to me that if animals have no real purpose beyond this world, then He would have made them afterwards, and they too would serve as a sort of sign, a sign of our Fall.
God has also used animals to reprove us, as when Balaam's ass remonstrated with Balaam as to why, after years of service, he was being beaten. I wonder if the point of the story - or one of the points - was to make us see what animals would say, if they did speak, and to impress on us that animals do feel, that they are not simply soulless creatures for us to abuse as we will. Balaam's ass speaks the way any person would, if they felt they were unjustly abused.
God also says, somewhere in the Bible, "a righteous man regards the life of his beast" and tells us not to "muzzle the ox that treads out the corn."
Now with regards to one thing you said in your last email, about Heaven having seasons - you quoted Revelations 22: Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life. It was as clear as crystal. It flowed from the throne of God and of the Lamb. It flowed down the middle of the city's main street. (v2) On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit. It's fruit was ripe every month. The leaves of the tree bring healing to the nations (NIRV) for your thoughts that Heaven has seasons.
It seems to me that this chapter in Revelations is talking about the new earth, since in the chapter preceding chapter 22, John writes, I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem. It was coming down out of heaven from God.
I understand Heaven to be up and we are shown the Holy City coming down. Do you think that the new Heavens and the New Earth are one and the same thing?
Ezekiel 47 references the same vision, and I always understood it to mean the earth, not Heaven, although Ezekiel's vision, makes no specific mention of a particularly new Heaven and a new Earth. But he does write in verse 12, Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not dry up. The trees will always have fruit on them. Every month they will bear fruit. The water from the temple will flow to them. Their fruit will be good for food. And their leaves will be used for healing.
I wonder if the word new in association with the redeemed earth is meant as a descriptor of a world that is so unlike the world we live in that it might as well be new. We are also back to the subject of animals and their place in creation and redemption since we have lions lying down with lambs and children playing on the holes of vipers, and the Lamb of God living among us, and we are told, there will be no more night, and we will not need the light of the sun.
All of that sounds so mysterious to me, that mixture of animals and relations that we do understand, with the idea of no more sun. Is this new earth even a planet anymore?
What do you think?
love, Layla
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