I wasn't very happy with my last two posts - it was like there was a word or an idea on the tip of my tongue but I couldn't articulate it. It occurred to me the other day just what it was.
You speak of "gifts." And I think what you call "gifts" I would call "a calling."
As far as I know, I have no gifts that I would attribute to the Holy Spirit. To me, the word "gift" implies something that isn't evident in non-Christians when I look around me. And I just don't see that at all.
For many years and until this day, people who are a little "off" - maybe they have mental health issues or there's something about them that doesn't fit well into the mainstream society, have been coming around my house. Maybe you would call it a gift? I have no real idea why these people feel comfortable in my house. Obviously I try to make them feel comfortable but I would do that for any guest. Even though these unexpected visits maybe don't come at the right time.
I've also had people who are outsiders come to my house and mistake me for a complete fool, presumably for having them over and getting very angry when I wouldn't get involved in things like welfare fraud, ie, wanting to use my address and my name to verify what isn't true. Won't do it. Period. Or people who end up putting you in a position where you are in danger of losing your faith for some reason. I don't feel I am obliged to do what I cannot do, what might put my own immortal soul in jeopardy. It's that avoiding temptation thing. I also have to consider those who are or might be affected by these guests.
If a person somehow causes division or confusion or might lead my husband in a direction that is clearly not a direction to go, then that person is no longer welcome. I am responsible for the souls in my house to a certain extent, just like one would or should not, even in the interests of forgiving, invite a child molester into a house with a child. So my hospitality is conditional. I might not say it, but most people, even ones without mental health issues, understand instinctively that when someone says mi casa su casa, it is not meant literally. It is conditional upon behaviour that is hardly ever spelled out (who greets guests with a long list of what is acceptable and what is not?) but still generally understood.
My parents' house is also a place for misfits to gather. Most of them have their "season," in that they aren't necessarily permanent fixtures but move on after a while.
In one way I can look at this strange attraction I have for outsiders as a "gift" but since it isn't always about good guys, bad strange people are also attracted to me often enough for me to wonder if I have "sucker" printed on my forehead. I can't ever walk down a street, even with a group of friends, and I will be the one the panhandler seeks out, or the kid selling chocolate bars for school fundraisers. I never say no.
But given that I attract con men as well as genuine hurting people, how can this be a gift? I feel I am "called" to give money to whoever asks me, in accordance with Jesus' instructions to "if he asks for your coat, give it to him." I do it because that is what I, as a Christian, am supposed to do, without worrying about where I will get another coat, as the lilies of the field.
So it's intellectual, not that I'm such a good person. Not because I hear the voice of God whispering in my ear. I give what I have, inwardly, to give, not what I don't have.
Other than one of my sisters and one of my brothers, I don't know anyone, Christian or non-Christian who not only gets approached as much as I do, but also gives. I don't worry about being mugged. That seems to be everyone who is freaked out about what I do, their main worry.
When my husband was in the hospital, and I would take breaks by sitting outside in a not very good area of town, homeless people would come around and furtively look for half-smoked cigarettes that hospital visitors had thrown away.
Cigarettes here are very expensive - more than ten dollars a pack. It bothered me, the shame I saw on the faces of many as they tried to act casual about rummaging through the ashtrays or picking cigarettes off the sidewalk. Many were Native Canadians. Tobacco is a part of their culture and religion. As well as an addiction of course.
So I would say, "Excuse me, sir/ma'am. Would you like a cigarette?" And give them whole, unsmoked cigarettes. One man asked for an extra one for his grandmother. I gave him that. These people have way bigger problems than dying of lung cancer. I assume many Christians would have a problem with me doing that, and see cigarettes as sinful.
When my husband was several hours in surgery, and I couldn't stand it any longer, I went for walks because I could not sit still. In retrospect, I think the cigarettes I had been handing out where the reason I wasn't hurt or mugged. It is not a nice area of town.
There were also a lot of people in the hospital - I spent so much time there I got to know regular faces. Some of them needed their shoes tied and nurses wouldn't stop. So I tied them. Others needed to have their wheelchairs pushed to another area, so I did that. One man who had a brain injury and couldn't speak and was in a wheelchair needed a hug. I thought so anyway. So I hugged him and kissed him on the cheek whenever I saw him. It made him feel like a man. (He was a young man. People can get starved for the touch of another human. And as sexual creatures, I think also young men who are in what this man's condition was, he wanted a woman's touch. So I touched him.
I was rather busy at the end of my husband's stay and I still think of all those people.
But this is my duty as a Christian. I wouldn't ever think of it as a gift. I never once preached Christ to them. I tried to act like Christ who touched the lepers and made the blind see, and who saw through to the emotion behind a scarlet woman anointing him with oil bought with presumably with funds earned as a prostitute. A light on a mountain can't be hidden.
I know that there are verses upon verses about gifts, but there is nothing that I read that indicates these gifts are meant for the church today. And even if they are meant for the church today, I think Paul meant "gifts" with a much smaller "g". I think he meant talents. That every person has different talents. But this is true for Christians and non-Christians alike. It is how the world functions.
These talents may include healing by doctors, Christian or not, the ability to take apart cars and put them back together in a working order, or painting wonderful paintings that make people think. Or the ability of the waitress to stand on her feet hour after hour, carrying food to the restaurant's customers. Everything works together to make the whole. Take out any one thing and there' s no society.
I'm not sure if I've explained my position any better?
Layla
Sunday, August 31, 2008
Saturday, August 30, 2008
Gifts post, with verses (KJV)
Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow those who believe: In my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
1 Corinthians 14: 22 Wherefore, tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not; but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them who believe.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit. For to one is given, by the Spirit, the word of wisdom; to another, the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another, faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, discerning of spirits; to another, various kinds of tongues; to another, the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the very same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Let’s start with the basics. Layla, I know that you are a believer in the inerrant Word of God. It’s the Bible that sets the foundation to all our conversations. Spiritual gifts aren’t just given the odd verse here and there, there are CHAPTERS about them. So, therefore, they exist. No ifs, ands, or buts – God says that He gives us gifts through the Holy Spirit, so He does.
I think one of the things that is key here is the “dividing to every man severally as he will” (my Bible doesn’t capitalize pronouns – but I’m thinking the “he” here would be the Spirit not “each man”. Otherwise we could pick our own gifts and what a mess that would be). God gives us what He wants to give us, and He gives it to us for whatever season He chooses to. Perhaps a day, perhaps a year, perhaps a lifetime. My church gets into identifying those gifts, both as a reassurance and to identify where you should be ministering and serving. I’m good at mercy and counsel – so I counsel people. I’m geeking out more and more about learning, is that the gift of knowledge? LOL. Is this conversation we’re having not being posted *as* a ministry attempt? Of course it is.
I pulled different subjects out of your last two posts and discussed them in paragraphs, I don’t think they flow particularly well from paragraph to paragraph. Sorry! :P But onward…
The popular understanding in my church is that the snakes and poison gifts were specifically given to the apostles, and are known as the apostolic gifts. Since we don’t have apostles anymore, those gifts are given only as it suits the Lord and fall under the category of miracles. I would say that the folks that drink poison and handle serpents certainly have the gift of FAITH – more than I do. (Paul had those gifts – remember the snake who bit him on that island?)
Faith as a mustard seed – well, if we had more faith, why would we *try* to move mountains? That would be mean. Not to mention kind of testing… you know if you had the faith to know you could do it, why would you do it except to test it, and if you needed to test it, you wouldn’t have that much faith. Better to plant that mustard seed and let it grow into a plant big enough that birds can sit on it (and it does, we have wild mustard on the hills here – a good wet year will see it over my head). The church of today, in the West, has about as much faith as a soggy breadcrumb. (VERY sadly, we do live in the time of the apostate church).
As for tongues, I don’t believe in a spirit-language. Tongues are given “for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not…” well, babble isn’t a sign to anyone. However, I had a pastor who said he’d once had an experience of genuine tongues – he’d been preaching in English and a few members of his audience had heard him in other languages, and grabbed their friends and said, “He’s preaching in xxx?” “No – he’s preaching in English!” Those folks didn’t speak English, but heard the sermon in their own language. Now, that qualifies as both the spirit of order and the laws of tongues, that there be someone to interpret, etc.
Do Christians have more mercy/love/kindness than non-Christians? The closer we get to the Holy Spirit, the more we see the fruits of His work in our lives. (Those are fruit as well as gifts). But it’s not a zero-sum game. We don’t all start out at the same spot on the nice-o-meter. I have a friend who is a very unpleasant person to hang out with. She’s irritating. She’s a believer, she goes to church, she has real faith. But pleasant? No. But where did she start? Oh … well, her life’s been so bad that it’s a wonder that she’s not homeless and talking to the voices in her head. She manages kindness to the people around her *even though she’s not “nice”*. Why? Because she has God. *I* am a nice person from a nice family, and I know how to play the nice game. Without God I’d still play it on the face… and be a selfish wench following my own desires in private. God knows, and He’s the only judge. (This is where we’re not supposed to be judges. You don’t judge a stranger on their walk with God).
I guess the comment about doing good things as a part of our natures might follow here. I’m glad that you live in a nice part of the world, where people still are nice. I don’t. And it’s getting worse coming up behind us. You see, folks were *taught* how to behave nicely, that it was just “something you did”. No more. Do you know that I get startled praise from shop owners because my kids say “please” and “thank you”? No, this isn’t inbred. People SUCK. The old nature is nasty and horrible, diseased at its core. YOU have a new nature, the Holy Spirit inside of you expressing His gifts of love and mercy and kindness through you. Of course you do good things. It would be against your (new) nature to do otherwise. And hey – I think that it’s great that you have kicked your old nature to the curb to the place that you don’t notice the battle. I could wish the same for myself!
Maybe that’s where the difference we are having here come down. Cultural – Mennonites don’t do self-absorbed “what am *I* good at?” things, evangelicals do. But are you gifted, my sister? Oh YES. Yes you most certainly are. J
On to the next topic, and a crunchy one. What do you think of the practice of celebrating Biblical feasts (aka Jewish) instead of the current lot that the Christian west celebrates? I’ve been reading up on Rosh Hashana in the Messianic Jewish pages (It comes next)… very interesting. I have always thought that Judaism is the most beautiful religion on the planet – ‘course it should be, since God put it together. J
Happy Saturday! :D
- Hearth
1 Corinthians 14: 22 Wherefore, tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not; but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them who believe.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1 Corinthians 12:7-11 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit. For to one is given, by the Spirit, the word of wisdom; to another, the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another, faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another, the working of miracles; to another, prophecy; to another, discerning of spirits; to another, various kinds of tongues; to another, the interpretation of tongues. But all these worketh that one and the very same Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Let’s start with the basics. Layla, I know that you are a believer in the inerrant Word of God. It’s the Bible that sets the foundation to all our conversations. Spiritual gifts aren’t just given the odd verse here and there, there are CHAPTERS about them. So, therefore, they exist. No ifs, ands, or buts – God says that He gives us gifts through the Holy Spirit, so He does.
I think one of the things that is key here is the “dividing to every man severally as he will” (my Bible doesn’t capitalize pronouns – but I’m thinking the “he” here would be the Spirit not “each man”. Otherwise we could pick our own gifts and what a mess that would be). God gives us what He wants to give us, and He gives it to us for whatever season He chooses to. Perhaps a day, perhaps a year, perhaps a lifetime. My church gets into identifying those gifts, both as a reassurance and to identify where you should be ministering and serving. I’m good at mercy and counsel – so I counsel people. I’m geeking out more and more about learning, is that the gift of knowledge? LOL. Is this conversation we’re having not being posted *as* a ministry attempt? Of course it is.
I pulled different subjects out of your last two posts and discussed them in paragraphs, I don’t think they flow particularly well from paragraph to paragraph. Sorry! :P But onward…
The popular understanding in my church is that the snakes and poison gifts were specifically given to the apostles, and are known as the apostolic gifts. Since we don’t have apostles anymore, those gifts are given only as it suits the Lord and fall under the category of miracles. I would say that the folks that drink poison and handle serpents certainly have the gift of FAITH – more than I do. (Paul had those gifts – remember the snake who bit him on that island?)
Faith as a mustard seed – well, if we had more faith, why would we *try* to move mountains? That would be mean. Not to mention kind of testing… you know if you had the faith to know you could do it, why would you do it except to test it, and if you needed to test it, you wouldn’t have that much faith. Better to plant that mustard seed and let it grow into a plant big enough that birds can sit on it (and it does, we have wild mustard on the hills here – a good wet year will see it over my head). The church of today, in the West, has about as much faith as a soggy breadcrumb. (VERY sadly, we do live in the time of the apostate church).
As for tongues, I don’t believe in a spirit-language. Tongues are given “for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not…” well, babble isn’t a sign to anyone. However, I had a pastor who said he’d once had an experience of genuine tongues – he’d been preaching in English and a few members of his audience had heard him in other languages, and grabbed their friends and said, “He’s preaching in xxx?” “No – he’s preaching in English!” Those folks didn’t speak English, but heard the sermon in their own language. Now, that qualifies as both the spirit of order and the laws of tongues, that there be someone to interpret, etc.
Do Christians have more mercy/love/kindness than non-Christians? The closer we get to the Holy Spirit, the more we see the fruits of His work in our lives. (Those are fruit as well as gifts). But it’s not a zero-sum game. We don’t all start out at the same spot on the nice-o-meter. I have a friend who is a very unpleasant person to hang out with. She’s irritating. She’s a believer, she goes to church, she has real faith. But pleasant? No. But where did she start? Oh … well, her life’s been so bad that it’s a wonder that she’s not homeless and talking to the voices in her head. She manages kindness to the people around her *even though she’s not “nice”*. Why? Because she has God. *I* am a nice person from a nice family, and I know how to play the nice game. Without God I’d still play it on the face… and be a selfish wench following my own desires in private. God knows, and He’s the only judge. (This is where we’re not supposed to be judges. You don’t judge a stranger on their walk with God).
I guess the comment about doing good things as a part of our natures might follow here. I’m glad that you live in a nice part of the world, where people still are nice. I don’t. And it’s getting worse coming up behind us. You see, folks were *taught* how to behave nicely, that it was just “something you did”. No more. Do you know that I get startled praise from shop owners because my kids say “please” and “thank you”? No, this isn’t inbred. People SUCK. The old nature is nasty and horrible, diseased at its core. YOU have a new nature, the Holy Spirit inside of you expressing His gifts of love and mercy and kindness through you. Of course you do good things. It would be against your (new) nature to do otherwise. And hey – I think that it’s great that you have kicked your old nature to the curb to the place that you don’t notice the battle. I could wish the same for myself!
Maybe that’s where the difference we are having here come down. Cultural – Mennonites don’t do self-absorbed “what am *I* good at?” things, evangelicals do. But are you gifted, my sister? Oh YES. Yes you most certainly are. J
On to the next topic, and a crunchy one. What do you think of the practice of celebrating Biblical feasts (aka Jewish) instead of the current lot that the Christian west celebrates? I’ve been reading up on Rosh Hashana in the Messianic Jewish pages (It comes next)… very interesting. I have always thought that Judaism is the most beautiful religion on the planet – ‘course it should be, since God put it together. J
Happy Saturday! :D
- Hearth
Sunday, August 24, 2008
Biblical Literalism
This kind of pertains to what we've been discussing. Do you find that the Christians you know are more loving, hospitable, compassionate, etc., than the non-Christians you know? If not, then what exactly do those virtues mean as they pertain to the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
I guess what I am thinking is that I don't believe that everyone receives gifts from the Holy Spirit. I don't believe in tongues as they are practised by Charismatic churches. I see no difference between that and the trances that shamans go into when they are possessed by non-Christian spirits.
I still remember when there was the laughter movement within the charismatic churches, in which they claimed the Holy Spirit manifested Himself within the congregations with hysterical laughter, in which whole congregations simply rolled around the churches, holding their bellies and laughing. Hello, people. Our God is not the author of confusion. God, in the scriptures, always has a point. They may indeed have been possessed by some spirit but the Spirit of God is not that of being drunk with laughter. There is nothing that points to God at all in such nonsense.
I don't believe that there are any modern day prophecies as they relate to the time of the end, or even the individual. I will be happy to change my mind on empirical proof that any Christian anywhere has given any prophecy pertaining to an individual or a world event that has come true since the dawn of Christianity.
It would seem to me, that just as the miracles of Jesus stood out as exceptional and supernatural - raising the dead, for instance in front of many people who surely had seen enough death to know what death meant, that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, would also be exceptional and supernatural in form - such as the visible tongues of fire that descended upon the disciples at Pentecost, and the resulting miracle that each man heard the gospel in their own language. I don't understand how such a practical application and explanation of tongues evolved into the gibberish speaking in tongues that some churches now believe in.
Sometimes one hears of exceptional stories of strength, such as lifting a car off a person. A gift of hospitality or mercy, it seems to me, would show itself as exceptional. Allowing for differences of personality, I know of no one who is exceptional in a way that would strike me as miraculous. In other words, I don't believe that God shares his glory or credit. When God speaks, there's no doubt who's speaking. If there is doubt, it's not God but one's own wishful thinking.
I think that there is a problem in reading the scriptures about these gifts that were given to the early church for its survival. Just as the snake handlers take up snakes and drink poisons based on Mark 16: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I do not believe that God meant us to go willy-nilly picking up poisonous snakes or drinking poison. And if he did not mean that, he can't either have meant that the church would necessarily always have the power to cast out devils or speak with new tongues. Miracles are a sign to those who do not believe. They were essential for the early church. It seems to me that they are now handled by some churches, as though God is a trick pony that the church can make jump through hoops for entertainment purposes.
Can you pick and choose among snakes and casting out devils without admitting that there is a problem in being consistent in one's interpretation of Biblical passages? When the scriptures say that whoever has faith the size of a mustard seed has the power to move mountains - are we to take it to mean that we should move mountains?
However, I do believe that if for some reason, God wants me at Place "B" there is no obstacle that can stand in my way that God will not move. My interpretation or understanding of that scripture is both literal and not literal, depending on how you look at it. The snake handlers would say that it is not literal.
I think that, in the entire context of Mark 16, and including what happened to Paul when he was bitten by a serpent and did not die, that God was speaking of accidental encounters with serpents and involuntary encounters with poisons. The situation Paul was in for instance, took place in front of people, who saw then the power of God. I believe that God was saying that he has our life in his hands, and when he says we die, we die and not before, regardless of accidental encounters with serpents.
As Jesus said when Satan tempted him with the notion of throwing himself off a cliff because "...it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
I guess what I am thinking is that I don't believe that everyone receives gifts from the Holy Spirit. I don't believe in tongues as they are practised by Charismatic churches. I see no difference between that and the trances that shamans go into when they are possessed by non-Christian spirits.
I still remember when there was the laughter movement within the charismatic churches, in which they claimed the Holy Spirit manifested Himself within the congregations with hysterical laughter, in which whole congregations simply rolled around the churches, holding their bellies and laughing. Hello, people. Our God is not the author of confusion. God, in the scriptures, always has a point. They may indeed have been possessed by some spirit but the Spirit of God is not that of being drunk with laughter. There is nothing that points to God at all in such nonsense.
I don't believe that there are any modern day prophecies as they relate to the time of the end, or even the individual. I will be happy to change my mind on empirical proof that any Christian anywhere has given any prophecy pertaining to an individual or a world event that has come true since the dawn of Christianity.
It would seem to me, that just as the miracles of Jesus stood out as exceptional and supernatural - raising the dead, for instance in front of many people who surely had seen enough death to know what death meant, that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, would also be exceptional and supernatural in form - such as the visible tongues of fire that descended upon the disciples at Pentecost, and the resulting miracle that each man heard the gospel in their own language. I don't understand how such a practical application and explanation of tongues evolved into the gibberish speaking in tongues that some churches now believe in.
Sometimes one hears of exceptional stories of strength, such as lifting a car off a person. A gift of hospitality or mercy, it seems to me, would show itself as exceptional. Allowing for differences of personality, I know of no one who is exceptional in a way that would strike me as miraculous. In other words, I don't believe that God shares his glory or credit. When God speaks, there's no doubt who's speaking. If there is doubt, it's not God but one's own wishful thinking.
I think that there is a problem in reading the scriptures about these gifts that were given to the early church for its survival. Just as the snake handlers take up snakes and drink poisons based on Mark 16: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
I do not believe that God meant us to go willy-nilly picking up poisonous snakes or drinking poison. And if he did not mean that, he can't either have meant that the church would necessarily always have the power to cast out devils or speak with new tongues. Miracles are a sign to those who do not believe. They were essential for the early church. It seems to me that they are now handled by some churches, as though God is a trick pony that the church can make jump through hoops for entertainment purposes.
Can you pick and choose among snakes and casting out devils without admitting that there is a problem in being consistent in one's interpretation of Biblical passages? When the scriptures say that whoever has faith the size of a mustard seed has the power to move mountains - are we to take it to mean that we should move mountains?
However, I do believe that if for some reason, God wants me at Place "B" there is no obstacle that can stand in my way that God will not move. My interpretation or understanding of that scripture is both literal and not literal, depending on how you look at it. The snake handlers would say that it is not literal.
I think that, in the entire context of Mark 16, and including what happened to Paul when he was bitten by a serpent and did not die, that God was speaking of accidental encounters with serpents and involuntary encounters with poisons. The situation Paul was in for instance, took place in front of people, who saw then the power of God. I believe that God was saying that he has our life in his hands, and when he says we die, we die and not before, regardless of accidental encounters with serpents.
As Jesus said when Satan tempted him with the notion of throwing himself off a cliff because "...it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."
Jesus responded, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."
So clearly we are warned by this example to be careful how much weight we put on any one Bible verse as what they say is conditional upon others, conditional upon common sense.
Layla
Saturday, August 23, 2008
I know what you mean - in a way. However, somehow it doesn't make sense to me. If mercy and love and hospitality and teaching were traits only Christians had, then you have a point. But people have such traits regardless of faith or lack of faith. It may still be a "gift" in the sense that some people are better at some things than others, but specifically Christian? Only in the sense that we are made in God's image which is the reason why we possess these qualities to begin with - believer and non-believer alike. But they are always there. They may deepen as a result of loving God, and having a conscious knowledge of God.
But since I believe - know - that God exists - and believe that all life comes from God, God's existence - His goodness - His mercy is not dependent on whether anyone at all believes in Him and the qualities that He passed on, when He made man in His image, exist in humanity regardless of belief. To me, all goodness in the world is a reflection of what Paul said to the Galatians about how they, in their ignorance, and imperfectly,
already worshipped God the Father and the Son, when they worshipped the Unknown God.
I see the whole thing in a much broader way, in a societal sense. Like we need the garbage man and the business owner. The food store and the flower shop. The mechanic and the doctor. And everything works together to make life better for all of us.
However, I also think that if love of God is part of a person, the way it ought to be part of a person, that person isn't thinking in terms of gifts, or in terms of being specifically Christian - it is in the air that they breathe. To me, the other way, implies consciously thinking of doing good which isn't a bad thing by any means, particularly if the other choice is doing bad things, but if doing good is a part of your nature, it wouldn't require thought, would it? If doing what is good and right is "natural", it doesn't involve thinking consciously about those things.
I don't know. I just can't seem to think like that. I'd rather just do.
Layla
But since I believe - know - that God exists - and believe that all life comes from God, God's existence - His goodness - His mercy is not dependent on whether anyone at all believes in Him and the qualities that He passed on, when He made man in His image, exist in humanity regardless of belief. To me, all goodness in the world is a reflection of what Paul said to the Galatians about how they, in their ignorance, and imperfectly,
already worshipped God the Father and the Son, when they worshipped the Unknown God.
I see the whole thing in a much broader way, in a societal sense. Like we need the garbage man and the business owner. The food store and the flower shop. The mechanic and the doctor. And everything works together to make life better for all of us.
However, I also think that if love of God is part of a person, the way it ought to be part of a person, that person isn't thinking in terms of gifts, or in terms of being specifically Christian - it is in the air that they breathe. To me, the other way, implies consciously thinking of doing good which isn't a bad thing by any means, particularly if the other choice is doing bad things, but if doing good is a part of your nature, it wouldn't require thought, would it? If doing what is good and right is "natural", it doesn't involve thinking consciously about those things.
I don't know. I just can't seem to think like that. I'd rather just do.
Layla
Clarification, verses
Possibly this is a thing that the evangelical church gets more "into" because you know we're all into self-realisation (err... not that this is a good thing maybe), but there is discussion of the spiritual gifts that believers get in a few spots in the Bible - let me start with Romans 12: 4-8, the list there is prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and mercy. There's some difference of opinion about whether prophecy means *really* hard hitting new insights into the scriptures or just literal prophecy, but the others are reasonably obvious. Everyone has something that they're particularly good at. I, for instance, am not particulary a good teacher. I would like to be, I try to be - but it's not my gift. I am gifted in mercy - people find me, and I always find I have more to give, effortlessly. This goes above and beyond my Christian obligation to show mercy or hospitality - folks gifted with those are AWESOME at it. For instance, you don't like dealing with uninvited guests, it's an effort to you. The person gifted with hospitality somehow always has a clean (enough) house, plenty of random food, and the energy to deal.
We are not all equally gifted in all areas - and we aren't supposed to be. Paul prefaces his listing of gifts by saying, in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. and there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God who worketh all in all. (The discussion of gifts continues throughout chp 12, and through the end of chp 14, with some asides).
So this would go above and beyond our general Christian duty to show love to our neighbors in whatever way that they need, this would be our specific gift.
Does that begin to make more sense?
We are not all equally gifted in all areas - and we aren't supposed to be. Paul prefaces his listing of gifts by saying, in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. and there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God who worketh all in all. (The discussion of gifts continues throughout chp 12, and through the end of chp 14, with some asides).
So this would go above and beyond our general Christian duty to show love to our neighbors in whatever way that they need, this would be our specific gift.
Does that begin to make more sense?
Dazed
Maybe I am having a senior moment, but in a weird sort of way, I don't have a clue what you mean and I think it is because you are compartmentalizing certain things by referring to them as spiritual gifts. Belief and life are not separated in my head that way. Just like I don't do the A, B,C thing - to me life is God.
I know what I feel I was always meant to do but I don't feel that it leads to evangelisation or prophecy or anything like that. And we're told to love our neighbour as our selves but while some people may have more of a gift for it than others, it doesn't exclude people from loving their neighbour as themselves just because it's harder for them then those that are naturally more empathetic.
I think the problem is with the word "gift" (for me). It's like some people can draw and some people can barely draw a straight line and that happens among Christians and non-Christians alike, so I don't understand how a spiritual context might be applied to that.
For example, should Christians who can draw, draw only Christian things/themes? And if you're not including gifts such as artistry, but referring to things such as evangelisation and prophecy and church leadership, then I am ungifted. I have no calling to those things at all in the sense that God is not compartmentalized in my mind that way.
For example, if "Bob" comes to me with a problem, I am not thinking "how can I save Bob? How can I make a Christian point?" I am empathizing with Bob's problem. Maybe "Bob" is hungry. I feed "Bob." That's just what I do. I don't think to myself that I am feeding Bob in Jesus' name or exercising a spiritual gift. I'm not thinking necessarily, specifically about God at all but because I love Jesus, by definition, everything I do and say is about Jesus in a certain way. It's not compartmentalized in my head though.
Which doesn't mean that the conversation might not turn to God because Bob might say "How could God let this happen to me?" and so a conversation about how we see God might ensue.
To me, your question is like asking me what I do specifically as a human woman. Since I have never been anything other than a human woman, there is nothing that I have to separate it from. If you see what I mean.
I have people in and out of my life as well, very often people who are have difficult lives. I listen where I think I ought to listen, offer hope where I think I ought to offer hope, etc. but I'm having trouble placing that in the context you place it into. I don't feel that this is a calling but rather something that everyone does or should do. In other words, I don't think it is odd or somehow special that anyone does this - to me it is odd when people don't do that, Christian or non-Christian.
I've quoted the verse before (paraphrasing here) "What does the Lord require of you but to walk humbly before God, and to love justice..." To me that is "working for God." But I don't know that I would call it a gift. As someone once said, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stay silent.
Anyway, I'm a little lost here and I'm not sure why...
Layla
I know what I feel I was always meant to do but I don't feel that it leads to evangelisation or prophecy or anything like that. And we're told to love our neighbour as our selves but while some people may have more of a gift for it than others, it doesn't exclude people from loving their neighbour as themselves just because it's harder for them then those that are naturally more empathetic.
I think the problem is with the word "gift" (for me). It's like some people can draw and some people can barely draw a straight line and that happens among Christians and non-Christians alike, so I don't understand how a spiritual context might be applied to that.
For example, should Christians who can draw, draw only Christian things/themes? And if you're not including gifts such as artistry, but referring to things such as evangelisation and prophecy and church leadership, then I am ungifted. I have no calling to those things at all in the sense that God is not compartmentalized in my mind that way.
For example, if "Bob" comes to me with a problem, I am not thinking "how can I save Bob? How can I make a Christian point?" I am empathizing with Bob's problem. Maybe "Bob" is hungry. I feed "Bob." That's just what I do. I don't think to myself that I am feeding Bob in Jesus' name or exercising a spiritual gift. I'm not thinking necessarily, specifically about God at all but because I love Jesus, by definition, everything I do and say is about Jesus in a certain way. It's not compartmentalized in my head though.
Which doesn't mean that the conversation might not turn to God because Bob might say "How could God let this happen to me?" and so a conversation about how we see God might ensue.
To me, your question is like asking me what I do specifically as a human woman. Since I have never been anything other than a human woman, there is nothing that I have to separate it from. If you see what I mean.
I have people in and out of my life as well, very often people who are have difficult lives. I listen where I think I ought to listen, offer hope where I think I ought to offer hope, etc. but I'm having trouble placing that in the context you place it into. I don't feel that this is a calling but rather something that everyone does or should do. In other words, I don't think it is odd or somehow special that anyone does this - to me it is odd when people don't do that, Christian or non-Christian.
I've quoted the verse before (paraphrasing here) "What does the Lord require of you but to walk humbly before God, and to love justice..." To me that is "working for God." But I don't know that I would call it a gift. As someone once said, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stay silent.
Anyway, I'm a little lost here and I'm not sure why...
Layla
Wednesday, August 20, 2008
Eternal purpose
It's very clear in Scripture that each of us is to serve a spiritual purpose while we're here in this world, and that those purposes are different. We are each given gifts and asked to use them. I know we've talked a little bit about this before, how the Mennonite way isn't to evangelize but to be there in person and show good works and come alongside folks who need help and witness through an upstanding life.
While that's a part (a big part) of what I'm talking about, I'm also talking about the other spiritual gifts - service, exhortation, prophecy, counsel, discernment, etc. How are you working for God in this world? How effective do you feel like you are? What do you hunger to do more of? How does this fit with your theology?
I was thinking about this in regards to a friend of mine who I am burdened to be very close to right now, pestering him constantly to keep his life in line with God's will. It would drive me bats to have someone do this to me, but he needs it and it doesn't bug him. I have friends that I'm just "friends" with - you know, the folks you know just need a friend?
All my life, I've had people come in and out of my "circle". It's not like when they leave I forget them, but.... the season is past and they'ved moved on. And then God brings me someone new to befriend, someone new to counsel, someone new to show love to - someone new to witness to.
So - that's what I am, that's what I do. What is it that you do? That you *need* to work on to feel whole? That calls you and keeps you up at night?
While that's a part (a big part) of what I'm talking about, I'm also talking about the other spiritual gifts - service, exhortation, prophecy, counsel, discernment, etc. How are you working for God in this world? How effective do you feel like you are? What do you hunger to do more of? How does this fit with your theology?
I was thinking about this in regards to a friend of mine who I am burdened to be very close to right now, pestering him constantly to keep his life in line with God's will. It would drive me bats to have someone do this to me, but he needs it and it doesn't bug him. I have friends that I'm just "friends" with - you know, the folks you know just need a friend?
All my life, I've had people come in and out of my "circle". It's not like when they leave I forget them, but.... the season is past and they'ved moved on. And then God brings me someone new to befriend, someone new to counsel, someone new to show love to - someone new to witness to.
So - that's what I am, that's what I do. What is it that you do? That you *need* to work on to feel whole? That calls you and keeps you up at night?
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