For the first - corporate worship - I think most of our disagreement comes from cultural factors. When you say, "Everyone worshipping God sincerely" I look around and see 85% of my church doing just that. Frankly, there's little or no pressure here to be anywhere in particular on Sunday morning - the people in church (other than the odd spouse or whatnot) are there because *they* want to be there. I honestly expect to stand next to you and a million or five other people and sing praise songs in Heaven, jointly worshipping our Lord. So YES - that's what I meant. There is definitely a vibe there, worshipping with other Christians, that is different than the vibe I get in my 'prayer closet'. I wouldn't want to do without either of them. Now, do we have to identify with that congregation? No... I don't think we do. It can be helpful, for the reasons I posted a few go-rounds ago, but not at all necessary.
We are, and continue to be, at total odds with OSAS. I am not sure that salvation comes at repeating a phrase with no heart behind it - I think we can agree there wholeheartedly - but once you have been given salvation, it is yours forever. When you say, That's what once-saved-always-saved reminds me of. That there is a prize awarded to everyone who runs the race. 1 Cor. 9: Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? I think of works based salvation. We aren't running the race to be saved!! We are running the race to receive awards in Heaven, to receive the "well done, good and faithful servant" from the lips of our Savior. *Not* everyone will receive a prize. We are not promised equality in Heaven, we are promised justice. Our good works will be known, and the chaff will be burnt off before we get there. It would be the worst kind of mockery for me to be given the same award as someone who was beaten to death for our Savior's name.
Which brings me to more cheery and agreeable topics... :) What do you *want* in Heaven? I know the first thing I am looking forward to is getting rid of the old nature - getting rid of the capability to hurt those around me, to do wrong, to misstep. I'm looking forward to a new body (hopefully one that looks like I think I *ought* to look). I'm hoping for eons to sit under a tree near a street of gold, talking to my friends and watching Heaven roll past.
Thursday, February 28, 2008
Tuesday, February 26, 2008
Heavenly Bodies
I think that there's a good possibility that we are saying the same thing differently, when it comes to what you call corporate worship. You are talking, I'm sure, about sincere worship when you say that we'll engage in corporate worship in Heaven. But the way the word 'corporate' enters my ear is as a disjointed and disunited thing, a confusion of tongues. And I think that you would agree that there will be no confusion of tongues or spirits in Heaven.
What I think of when I think of everyone worshipping the Most High in Heaven is that there are no wolves among the sheep, that who we are on the inside is reflected on the outside. For example, whereas here on earth we have no choice really but to accept a person for who they claim to be - on faith, as it were, rightly or wrongly, in Heaven I think there will be no guessing game as to what a person's thoughts, feelings or motives are.
I sometimes have imagined our heavenly bodies to be as glass houses - things we can look straight through, with all the dross burned away, so that the multitudes upon multitudes while retaining their individuality, worship as one because they have the full knowledge of the one truth that isn't relative. I think that this oneness, this unity, is probably what you would describe as corporate worship.
I often imagine these glass bodies of ours to be shot through like a prism with different colors according to the personality of the person inhabiting this new body. I find myself, when I am somewhere where I have to wait - for example, a doctor's office, people-watching and trying to guess what colours they would be if they had such a prism-like body.
Here on earth, so often the most physically beautiful bodies are inhabited by the most self-centered or depraved spirits. The outside doesn't match the inside. And then there are people who have birth defects or who just have a face that only a mother could love, and I often feel that I catch a glimpse of the personality inside of them that would outshine the stars if their outside was their inside.
What you describe as heavenly corporate worship, in my mind what I see is private worship made public and with all the dross and misunderstandings burned away, each private bit of praise making a whole, like a symphony's various instruments. Each musician is playing his own private piece publicly, together, and that makes the whole. Do you see what I mean?
I think that when Paul said not to forsake assembling ourselves together, that he was speaking of this ideal. I am not saying that he was saying that if everyone isn't in perfect agreement that Christians should abandon gathering together. I am saying that even though we know that this world isn't perfect, perfection is still what we should strive for as individuals, shouldn't we?
To me each individual, private striving towards a better understanding of God is what makes worship, worship.
Anyway, I could be wrong but I think that you are probably saying the same thing but using words I wouldn't choose since I don't understand it that way. You are describing the trunk of the elephant and I am describing the legs.
As far as Bonhoeffer goes, I'd be interested if you could find a link on the internet to whichever one of his early essays that you have a quibble with. With regards to radical obedience though, in Revelations Jesus addresses that when he says to the churches, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. "
I think it is not that one can achieve necessarily a radical obedience but I think that salvation without striving actively for it might be questionable. There are too many examples of statements such as the above for me to believe in a one-saved-always-saved idea. That is the same notion the Jews had in the sense that many of them thought that they were better than the Samaritans or than the Romans just because they were the children of Abraham. They didn't have to try so hard - they didn't have to have that all-consuming love of God since God had already chosen them above the nations.
That's what once-saved-always-saved reminds me of. That there is a prize awarded to everyone who runs the race. 1 Cor. 9: Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
Layla
What I think of when I think of everyone worshipping the Most High in Heaven is that there are no wolves among the sheep, that who we are on the inside is reflected on the outside. For example, whereas here on earth we have no choice really but to accept a person for who they claim to be - on faith, as it were, rightly or wrongly, in Heaven I think there will be no guessing game as to what a person's thoughts, feelings or motives are.
I sometimes have imagined our heavenly bodies to be as glass houses - things we can look straight through, with all the dross burned away, so that the multitudes upon multitudes while retaining their individuality, worship as one because they have the full knowledge of the one truth that isn't relative. I think that this oneness, this unity, is probably what you would describe as corporate worship.
I often imagine these glass bodies of ours to be shot through like a prism with different colors according to the personality of the person inhabiting this new body. I find myself, when I am somewhere where I have to wait - for example, a doctor's office, people-watching and trying to guess what colours they would be if they had such a prism-like body.
Here on earth, so often the most physically beautiful bodies are inhabited by the most self-centered or depraved spirits. The outside doesn't match the inside. And then there are people who have birth defects or who just have a face that only a mother could love, and I often feel that I catch a glimpse of the personality inside of them that would outshine the stars if their outside was their inside.
What you describe as heavenly corporate worship, in my mind what I see is private worship made public and with all the dross and misunderstandings burned away, each private bit of praise making a whole, like a symphony's various instruments. Each musician is playing his own private piece publicly, together, and that makes the whole. Do you see what I mean?
I think that when Paul said not to forsake assembling ourselves together, that he was speaking of this ideal. I am not saying that he was saying that if everyone isn't in perfect agreement that Christians should abandon gathering together. I am saying that even though we know that this world isn't perfect, perfection is still what we should strive for as individuals, shouldn't we?
To me each individual, private striving towards a better understanding of God is what makes worship, worship.
Anyway, I could be wrong but I think that you are probably saying the same thing but using words I wouldn't choose since I don't understand it that way. You are describing the trunk of the elephant and I am describing the legs.
As far as Bonhoeffer goes, I'd be interested if you could find a link on the internet to whichever one of his early essays that you have a quibble with. With regards to radical obedience though, in Revelations Jesus addresses that when he says to the churches, "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. "
I think it is not that one can achieve necessarily a radical obedience but I think that salvation without striving actively for it might be questionable. There are too many examples of statements such as the above for me to believe in a one-saved-always-saved idea. That is the same notion the Jews had in the sense that many of them thought that they were better than the Samaritans or than the Romans just because they were the children of Abraham. They didn't have to try so hard - they didn't have to have that all-consuming love of God since God had already chosen them above the nations.
That's what once-saved-always-saved reminds me of. That there is a prize awarded to everyone who runs the race. 1 Cor. 9: Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize?
Layla
Sunday, February 24, 2008
As I went to church today
A few minor thoughts struck me (other than the gee I hope I don't trip on anything this time thoughts - lol).
1) We'll be engaging in corporate worship in Heaven.
2) Singing and things is better in person.
3) Sermons are better in person too.
4) It's good to see the faces of other Christians, and get the vibe.
It's not the only way, but ... I stand by its importance.
Other than that... a few thoughts here and there have wandered through. I continue to read Bonhoeffer, but though I want to stand up and follow his challenge to radical obedience, I don't know about some of the implications - especially in the early essays - that without that radical obedience, salvation isn't there.
At any rate, I'm definitely not up to debating that, just wanted to let you know I hadn't fallen off the face of the planet. :) Lots of small thoughts, hope to have a bigger more cohesive thought to chew on jointly... do you have any in stock?
Hugs and hope you are better...
Hearth
1) We'll be engaging in corporate worship in Heaven.
2) Singing and things is better in person.
3) Sermons are better in person too.
4) It's good to see the faces of other Christians, and get the vibe.
It's not the only way, but ... I stand by its importance.
Other than that... a few thoughts here and there have wandered through. I continue to read Bonhoeffer, but though I want to stand up and follow his challenge to radical obedience, I don't know about some of the implications - especially in the early essays - that without that radical obedience, salvation isn't there.
At any rate, I'm definitely not up to debating that, just wanted to let you know I hadn't fallen off the face of the planet. :) Lots of small thoughts, hope to have a bigger more cohesive thought to chew on jointly... do you have any in stock?
Hugs and hope you are better...
Hearth
Thursday, February 14, 2008
Private Worship
I've been mulling over your last post and what I think I see in it is that in my mind there is no separation between private worship and public worship, just as there is no separation in my mind in behaving like a Christian all of the time verus dividing one's beliefs into this-is-how-I-behave-as-a-citizen-of-the-world and this-is-how-I-behave-as-a-child-of-God.
I think that regardless of church membership, followers of Jesus should hold each other accountable - encouraging when needed and speaking the truth in love when needed. I don't mean that a person should go up to someone they don't know from Adam and start telling them what they are doing wrong - I mean that in the course of life, people know people and have relationships that don't necessarily include church or not the same church.
The RCC has always had this definition of the church, that outside of the RCC there is no salvation and that the community of the saints is about dead people who are probably in Heaven. The emphasis was so much on the corporate that the private form of worship (the spirit of the law) was completely overshadowed, almost obliterated by the letter of the law.
It seems to me that Jesus is really addressing the corporate aspect of religion when he says in Matthew 6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
My understanding of the 'church' and how we are not to forsake assembling together is that 'church' means only a bunch of individuals who believe in Jesus, not a corporate structure at all.
I see the church as written about by the apostles and the community of saints as something that exists outside of society and society's institutions. Outside of time, even.
People do organize themselves automatically and I understand that. But I think that the Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner actually demonstrates the opposite of how you see it. It is the way we ought all to pray, all the time.
The tendency of people to turn to a corporate structure as a means of gaining respectability was rejected. Not only in this example but also in the example of when he drove the money-changers out of the Temple and said, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
To me, it is the private prayer of individuals that sanctifies and defines the church and is the church.
I'm not sure this post makes any sense at all. I haven't been able to find quite the right words to explain what I mean.
I think that regardless of church membership, followers of Jesus should hold each other accountable - encouraging when needed and speaking the truth in love when needed. I don't mean that a person should go up to someone they don't know from Adam and start telling them what they are doing wrong - I mean that in the course of life, people know people and have relationships that don't necessarily include church or not the same church.
The RCC has always had this definition of the church, that outside of the RCC there is no salvation and that the community of the saints is about dead people who are probably in Heaven. The emphasis was so much on the corporate that the private form of worship (the spirit of the law) was completely overshadowed, almost obliterated by the letter of the law.
It seems to me that Jesus is really addressing the corporate aspect of religion when he says in Matthew 6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
My understanding of the 'church' and how we are not to forsake assembling together is that 'church' means only a bunch of individuals who believe in Jesus, not a corporate structure at all.
I see the church as written about by the apostles and the community of saints as something that exists outside of society and society's institutions. Outside of time, even.
People do organize themselves automatically and I understand that. But I think that the Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner actually demonstrates the opposite of how you see it. It is the way we ought all to pray, all the time.
The tendency of people to turn to a corporate structure as a means of gaining respectability was rejected. Not only in this example but also in the example of when he drove the money-changers out of the Temple and said, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.
To me, it is the private prayer of individuals that sanctifies and defines the church and is the church.
I'm not sure this post makes any sense at all. I haven't been able to find quite the right words to explain what I mean.
Saturday, February 9, 2008
Corporate Worship vs. Private Worship
Oh yes, churches are very stratified. But you brought up an interesting point at the end that I want to touch on... "God, be merciful to me, a sinner" is *private* worship and that's how we're supposed to do our praying and spiritual relationship building. BUT - we are at the same time commanded to fellowship with other Christians, and (for me) corporate worship serves a function as well.
Corporate worship is about 1) accountability 2) relationships 3) opportunities for service 4) opportunities to learn 5) special worship (ie signing, communion). It was never SUPPOSED to be about being "respectible" .... but you and I are in agreement that the Western church is very soft. 'Nough said on that. :)
1) We've talked a lot about judging and accountability. The point of having a local church is that those folks KNOW you. They know where you are in your walk and what your weaknesses are and when you're straying from the path. Remember it was first taking a matter privately, then a leader of the congregation, then the congregation as a whole when first interchurch judgements were to be made? You don't judge Sally who you've never met and only heard of... you judge Suzie who you've prayed with, cried with, taken casseroles to.
2) It's about forming relationships - people you can call up to pray for you, people who will rush up and bring you food when you're sick, people to give an example to and get examples from when it's time to show your Allegiance, and when the consequences come a'callin'.
3) Opportunities for service - my church SHINES on this. If you have a talent you want to use for God, whether it's cooking, playing the accordion or hanging from your knees from a trapeze, they will figure out how to incorporate you and really make it useful. Teaching Sunday School and sweeping the sanctuary always need doing - and anything done unto the Lord is sacred.
4) Opportunties to learn about our Lord - Most of us get the bulk of our religious education from the church body - whether that's Sunday service or weekday Bible study or??? it comes from the church most of the time.
5) Special worship - Yes, you can (I do, sometimes) worship through song at home. Alone. I don't get nearly the lift out of doing it at home that I do in church, which is only partially that I can't hear and be distracted by my most unmelodious voice. You take communion in fellowship - can't do that alone. Etc.
And yet all of that can't stand alone. I'm the last person to point a finger, I rarely get to church (you know I was sidelined by irony ... I broke the foot dropping my daughter to Sunday School, most gleeful that I'd finally be able to return to regular worship as she'd passed the age of tantrums). It's the times I've been absolutely alone with the Lord and screamed and cried and raged and whimpered, spent hours reading verse after verse that would comfort my heart through the darkest of hours, got pushed to the wall and dropped down on my knees - those are the times when my relationship with Jesus has grown by leaps and bounds. And yet. I still get called to GO to church. Even though I can hear my pastor on the web... it's still better when I *go*.
It's "hard" to do both. No one I know spontaneously enjoys both sides, and yet everyone I know, after they get into it, finds value in both. But it's hard to go past your boundaries and come to the place of balance. I'll let you know if I ever find it. :)
Corporate worship is about 1) accountability 2) relationships 3) opportunities for service 4) opportunities to learn 5) special worship (ie signing, communion). It was never SUPPOSED to be about being "respectible" .... but you and I are in agreement that the Western church is very soft. 'Nough said on that. :)
1) We've talked a lot about judging and accountability. The point of having a local church is that those folks KNOW you. They know where you are in your walk and what your weaknesses are and when you're straying from the path. Remember it was first taking a matter privately, then a leader of the congregation, then the congregation as a whole when first interchurch judgements were to be made? You don't judge Sally who you've never met and only heard of... you judge Suzie who you've prayed with, cried with, taken casseroles to.
2) It's about forming relationships - people you can call up to pray for you, people who will rush up and bring you food when you're sick, people to give an example to and get examples from when it's time to show your Allegiance, and when the consequences come a'callin'.
3) Opportunities for service - my church SHINES on this. If you have a talent you want to use for God, whether it's cooking, playing the accordion or hanging from your knees from a trapeze, they will figure out how to incorporate you and really make it useful. Teaching Sunday School and sweeping the sanctuary always need doing - and anything done unto the Lord is sacred.
4) Opportunties to learn about our Lord - Most of us get the bulk of our religious education from the church body - whether that's Sunday service or weekday Bible study or??? it comes from the church most of the time.
5) Special worship - Yes, you can (I do, sometimes) worship through song at home. Alone. I don't get nearly the lift out of doing it at home that I do in church, which is only partially that I can't hear and be distracted by my most unmelodious voice. You take communion in fellowship - can't do that alone. Etc.
And yet all of that can't stand alone. I'm the last person to point a finger, I rarely get to church (you know I was sidelined by irony ... I broke the foot dropping my daughter to Sunday School, most gleeful that I'd finally be able to return to regular worship as she'd passed the age of tantrums). It's the times I've been absolutely alone with the Lord and screamed and cried and raged and whimpered, spent hours reading verse after verse that would comfort my heart through the darkest of hours, got pushed to the wall and dropped down on my knees - those are the times when my relationship with Jesus has grown by leaps and bounds. And yet. I still get called to GO to church. Even though I can hear my pastor on the web... it's still better when I *go*.
It's "hard" to do both. No one I know spontaneously enjoys both sides, and yet everyone I know, after they get into it, finds value in both. But it's hard to go past your boundaries and come to the place of balance. I'll let you know if I ever find it. :)
Respectable Christians
We are currently in the middle of a blizzard with a low of -51C forecast for tonight. That's with windchill. It's sort of like an ice cream brain except that in Canada we have ice cream brain freeze for 6 months out of the year. And they say God doesn't make mistakes. So if my post makes no sense, it's because my brain is frozen solid.
Anyway, no, this baby Christian was brought up in a traditional Mennonite home. Mennonites tend to have higher incomes than non-Mennonites because there is a strong work ethic. They never preached that you are blessed with material wealth based on your love of God but with a strong work ethic and Mennonites supporting each other through Mennonite agencies, Mennonites tend to be on the wealthy side of things.
I don't know where this person's particular financial standing was. There are poor Mennonites and Mennonites tend to look down on them because usually the poverty is the result of a poor work ethic. They help but they still look down on them without saying one word.
I never thought about the respectability that many think money buys but that seems to me to be a likely reason that she bought into the prosperity gospel. Churches reek of respectability. It's funny how congregations everywhere tend to divide up into certain churches or denominations that poorer and less well educated people attend and other churches that are the domain of the doctors and lawyers and businessmen, isn't it?
Generally, here, the evangelicals tend to be new money and the Mennonites who turn to those churches tend to be the ones who had generational poverty as a result of a poor work ethic. The old money Mennonites who were wealthy in Russia as well stay in traditional Mennonite churches. Odd, isn't it?
It seems to me that then there comes a division that shouldn't exist in the church of God, where the respectable Mennonites judge the others just by the church they attend. And I think that the poorer Mennonites, who are usually under-educated, in their effort to become respectable, fall prey to false doctrines. I think both groups lose out.
So I take your point about buying respectability and that's probably dead on. I wasn't associating faith with respectability though, when I couldn't grasp the connection between the prosperity gospel and shame. I tend to mentally separate the cultural aspects of religion and make a distinction between that and faith.
I guess what I am saying is that if she is drawn to the prosperity gospel because she feels money buys respectability and she feels that her pregnancy made her unrespectable, then it isn't about God at all but about still about her.
When a person is completely broken down and humbled before God, then it isn't about respectability any more. It is only about "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."
I sometimes miss what seems perfectly obvious to me, now that you've pointed it out because respectability has never been part of my mind set. I think somehow my head just was never there. It was always faith only that interested me. I guess maybe that is why I have such an aversion to churches. There' s just something that strikes me as wrong whenever I am in a church. I think that the 'wrong' thing is probably the quest for respectability.
Layla
Anyway, no, this baby Christian was brought up in a traditional Mennonite home. Mennonites tend to have higher incomes than non-Mennonites because there is a strong work ethic. They never preached that you are blessed with material wealth based on your love of God but with a strong work ethic and Mennonites supporting each other through Mennonite agencies, Mennonites tend to be on the wealthy side of things.
I don't know where this person's particular financial standing was. There are poor Mennonites and Mennonites tend to look down on them because usually the poverty is the result of a poor work ethic. They help but they still look down on them without saying one word.
I never thought about the respectability that many think money buys but that seems to me to be a likely reason that she bought into the prosperity gospel. Churches reek of respectability. It's funny how congregations everywhere tend to divide up into certain churches or denominations that poorer and less well educated people attend and other churches that are the domain of the doctors and lawyers and businessmen, isn't it?
Generally, here, the evangelicals tend to be new money and the Mennonites who turn to those churches tend to be the ones who had generational poverty as a result of a poor work ethic. The old money Mennonites who were wealthy in Russia as well stay in traditional Mennonite churches. Odd, isn't it?
It seems to me that then there comes a division that shouldn't exist in the church of God, where the respectable Mennonites judge the others just by the church they attend. And I think that the poorer Mennonites, who are usually under-educated, in their effort to become respectable, fall prey to false doctrines. I think both groups lose out.
So I take your point about buying respectability and that's probably dead on. I wasn't associating faith with respectability though, when I couldn't grasp the connection between the prosperity gospel and shame. I tend to mentally separate the cultural aspects of religion and make a distinction between that and faith.
I guess what I am saying is that if she is drawn to the prosperity gospel because she feels money buys respectability and she feels that her pregnancy made her unrespectable, then it isn't about God at all but about still about her.
When a person is completely broken down and humbled before God, then it isn't about respectability any more. It is only about "God, be merciful to me, a sinner."
I sometimes miss what seems perfectly obvious to me, now that you've pointed it out because respectability has never been part of my mind set. I think somehow my head just was never there. It was always faith only that interested me. I guess maybe that is why I have such an aversion to churches. There' s just something that strikes me as wrong whenever I am in a church. I think that the 'wrong' thing is probably the quest for respectability.
Layla
Shame and Baby Christians
I was starting to get worried about you! Please take care of yourself!!!
As for the person you were blogging about, the baby Christian who's been led astray into prosperity gospel heresy... take into account that she very likely has not ever been exposed to good teaching. It takes discernment to find a good preacher, and a *lot* of Christians are not up for the "hard work" of just reading the Bible for themselves.
Immediately I knew what your friend meant about shame being used. Yes, shame is used in prison conversions etc, but in this case shame was used as a stick with prosperity as the carrot (remember she's likely never heard good teaching). The woman was probably thinking something of the, "I shamed myself by being pregnant before I was married, but God will not only cleanse my sins, He'll make me prosperous and I can expunge my shame in the public eye with riches". How tempting would that be? Oh MY.
Even in non-prosperity churches, "wear my shame" isn't exactly screamed from the mountaintops. (Oddly, my preacher has started to get into it a bit - but the Holy Spirit has always spoken loudly through Pastor Mike). Respectability is a draw. We all want that, to be thought good people by our neighbors and friends. For centuries now, church membership has been a part of that "respectibility" quotient.
The "babe" in question... has she accepted Jesus as her Savior, or is she just there going through the motions? Is she drinking milk laced with chocolate syrup or pure soda? (Sugar here being the prosperity gospel - it's not good for you, but is it here an additive or the whole meal?). Eventually, if she gets a good teacher, she will learn to get rid of the sugar. And it will likely be as wrenching as it is for us in the physical realm. :/ Is there a relationship to Jesus - even if she thinks the Heavenly Daddy is just there to bring her fuzzy teddy bears? That, you see, is my question about the folks led astray by prosperity gospels. Are they tiny babies in a nursery, being kept tiny sugarcrazed babies by their earstwhile shepherds - or are they only in it for the money? (Likely mixed).
You and I were started on whole foods while we yet sipped our milk. Churches that feed their "infants" that well are few and far between now - and even the churches that do offer meat must chivvy their sheep into that growth. Remember the lesson of D and her elderly ladies, kept infants for sixty years.
Hugs!
As for the person you were blogging about, the baby Christian who's been led astray into prosperity gospel heresy... take into account that she very likely has not ever been exposed to good teaching. It takes discernment to find a good preacher, and a *lot* of Christians are not up for the "hard work" of just reading the Bible for themselves.
Immediately I knew what your friend meant about shame being used. Yes, shame is used in prison conversions etc, but in this case shame was used as a stick with prosperity as the carrot (remember she's likely never heard good teaching). The woman was probably thinking something of the, "I shamed myself by being pregnant before I was married, but God will not only cleanse my sins, He'll make me prosperous and I can expunge my shame in the public eye with riches". How tempting would that be? Oh MY.
Even in non-prosperity churches, "wear my shame" isn't exactly screamed from the mountaintops. (Oddly, my preacher has started to get into it a bit - but the Holy Spirit has always spoken loudly through Pastor Mike). Respectability is a draw. We all want that, to be thought good people by our neighbors and friends. For centuries now, church membership has been a part of that "respectibility" quotient.
The "babe" in question... has she accepted Jesus as her Savior, or is she just there going through the motions? Is she drinking milk laced with chocolate syrup or pure soda? (Sugar here being the prosperity gospel - it's not good for you, but is it here an additive or the whole meal?). Eventually, if she gets a good teacher, she will learn to get rid of the sugar. And it will likely be as wrenching as it is for us in the physical realm. :/ Is there a relationship to Jesus - even if she thinks the Heavenly Daddy is just there to bring her fuzzy teddy bears? That, you see, is my question about the folks led astray by prosperity gospels. Are they tiny babies in a nursery, being kept tiny sugarcrazed babies by their earstwhile shepherds - or are they only in it for the money? (Likely mixed).
You and I were started on whole foods while we yet sipped our milk. Churches that feed their "infants" that well are few and far between now - and even the churches that do offer meat must chivvy their sheep into that growth. Remember the lesson of D and her elderly ladies, kept infants for sixty years.
Hugs!
Precept upon precept
I'm sorry I haven't been posting lately. I think my brain went into hibernation. The Canadian winter is not to be under estimated. I hope all is better with your foot. All is not yet well with my flu, which I think is pneumonia but I don't have the time to wait in a doctor's office to be told to drink plenty of fluids and get rest, so I've just skipped the middle part - that of seeing a doctor to begin with.
I don't think that all Christians mature at the same pace or even in the same way. Everyone has different strengths and our weaknesses are as important as our strengths. Jesus said, "My strength is made perfect in weakness."
I think when we as Christians are full of ourselves and confident of our own righteousness, that is when we become vulnerable to the evil one. We trust in ourselves and not in God. People often wonder why bad things happen to good people. If only good things happened, we would believe that the good things God gives us are due to ourselves. We then start to believe that we are the head and not the tail, the master and not the servant. I think this is a very serious issue for Christians and forms the theological basis for certain gospels like that of the prosperity gospel. IE, that our own works save us, not only in the world to come but in this world.
There is a place for different levels of Christianity - we all start off as children in our faith. We should only not remain children in our faith. But that is the starting point for every one. People shouldn't expect too much from new Christians and put too much pressure on them in certain matters, because they will grow in their understanding. Which is why I regard the prosperity gospel as blasphemy.
We had dinner company last week and one of the subjects that came up was how funny it is the way some people you knew when you were young have changed. The couple who were over for dinner mentioned someone they knew growing up who is now a fervent prosperity gospel Christian. The wife thought she had turned out that way because she felt shame over having been pregnant before she married and out of guilt this woman had become a religious flake.
I didn't see the connection. I think that shame can make people turn wholeheartedly to religion, wanting to redeem whatever they feel they did wrong in the past. That's why I don't scoff at jailhouse confessions of Christianity. I see no reason why those confessions of faith can't be the most sincere ones of all: consider the example of the thief on the cross. When you have run yourself into a corner, like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom, you have no pride left and then many people do turn to God.
But I don't see how shame or a sense of guilt and how far from perfect one has been will turn someone to a gospel that preaches prosperity in this world. The draw of the prosperity gospel, if a person really believes that they will get rich in a material sense because they are Christians, and all they have to do is name-it-and-claim it, has to be greed since material and not spiritual wealth is the entire premise of a prosperity gospel. And that is contrary to everything Jesus and the disciples taught about love of money being the root of all evil. You cannot serve God and the mammon.
I don't think that this prosperity gospel is simply immature Christians. I think that this is blasphemy and no more Christianity than those who would call themselves Christians and deny the resurrection.
Layla
I don't think that all Christians mature at the same pace or even in the same way. Everyone has different strengths and our weaknesses are as important as our strengths. Jesus said, "My strength is made perfect in weakness."
I think when we as Christians are full of ourselves and confident of our own righteousness, that is when we become vulnerable to the evil one. We trust in ourselves and not in God. People often wonder why bad things happen to good people. If only good things happened, we would believe that the good things God gives us are due to ourselves. We then start to believe that we are the head and not the tail, the master and not the servant. I think this is a very serious issue for Christians and forms the theological basis for certain gospels like that of the prosperity gospel. IE, that our own works save us, not only in the world to come but in this world.
There is a place for different levels of Christianity - we all start off as children in our faith. We should only not remain children in our faith. But that is the starting point for every one. People shouldn't expect too much from new Christians and put too much pressure on them in certain matters, because they will grow in their understanding. Which is why I regard the prosperity gospel as blasphemy.
We had dinner company last week and one of the subjects that came up was how funny it is the way some people you knew when you were young have changed. The couple who were over for dinner mentioned someone they knew growing up who is now a fervent prosperity gospel Christian. The wife thought she had turned out that way because she felt shame over having been pregnant before she married and out of guilt this woman had become a religious flake.
I didn't see the connection. I think that shame can make people turn wholeheartedly to religion, wanting to redeem whatever they feel they did wrong in the past. That's why I don't scoff at jailhouse confessions of Christianity. I see no reason why those confessions of faith can't be the most sincere ones of all: consider the example of the thief on the cross. When you have run yourself into a corner, like an alcoholic hitting rock bottom, you have no pride left and then many people do turn to God.
But I don't see how shame or a sense of guilt and how far from perfect one has been will turn someone to a gospel that preaches prosperity in this world. The draw of the prosperity gospel, if a person really believes that they will get rich in a material sense because they are Christians, and all they have to do is name-it-and-claim it, has to be greed since material and not spiritual wealth is the entire premise of a prosperity gospel. And that is contrary to everything Jesus and the disciples taught about love of money being the root of all evil. You cannot serve God and the mammon.
I don't think that this prosperity gospel is simply immature Christians. I think that this is blasphemy and no more Christianity than those who would call themselves Christians and deny the resurrection.
Layla
Monday, February 4, 2008
Baby Christians, Beginning thoughts on Bonhoeffer
Slow I am, but here we are. In my devotions this morning I came across the following verses in Isaiah: Isaiah 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Those who are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. :10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; This is not the only place where there is a difference made between "meat" and "milk" of spiritual truth in the Bible, but I was particularly drawn here to the progression of precept upon precept and line upon line - likewise in the epistles you'll find one spiritual gift stacked upon another in order.
It is my feeling that all who have their faces turned upon God and their dependence placed upon His Son's atonement are the recipients of grace. "Cheap grace"? No. Just children in the faith, no matter how old or young their bodies are. Must all children of our Lord be equally mature? Equally ready for personal sacrifice? It would be *nice*, but I don't see anything that indicates that in the Word. Our Lord is fairly good about arranging things so that we have opportunities to grow... though we don't generally ENJOY those opportunities! (I know I don't - but I do enjoy their fruits later on).
Thoughts?
It is my feeling that all who have their faces turned upon God and their dependence placed upon His Son's atonement are the recipients of grace. "Cheap grace"? No. Just children in the faith, no matter how old or young their bodies are. Must all children of our Lord be equally mature? Equally ready for personal sacrifice? It would be *nice*, but I don't see anything that indicates that in the Word. Our Lord is fairly good about arranging things so that we have opportunities to grow... though we don't generally ENJOY those opportunities! (I know I don't - but I do enjoy their fruits later on).
Thoughts?
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