I do agree... America is not in the Bible. I agree, it's dangerous to think that we have a voice from on High about... anything. But - yet I disagree. We are (some of us) given prophecy - and much to the disgust of my co-religionist blogger (the Baptist, not you), I am OFTEN given "feelings", "nudges", "the still, small voice"... and I *know* it's from God. How do I know? Well the first thing is that that small voice *never* asks you to do anything that contradicts the Bible. Never. Not in the smallest thing. Similarly, if we're given what we think are prophecies, I think they should be concrete and testable - and we *should* test them privately before claiming the gift of prophecy as a public ministry.
But is it impossible, simply because America does not fit into Biblical prophecies about the specifics of the last days (I agree we are in the spiritual famine and the apostasy), that no one can have a prophecy about America, in the times before?
Honestly, I don't think there's come a prophet with the true gift of Godly prophecy for nations. I've heard more than a few national prophecies and they are either vague or don't happen. That doesn't mean I think it's not possible, especially as the close of the age draws near. (It does mean I then discount those prophets).
What do I think? I think that instead of proper prophecy, many of us are given the gift of discernment. And those folks can perceive the truth of a situation, the dangers we happen to be in, the state of the souls around them, etc. If you use logic and the Bible and a good eye for the truth... you can get to where *most* of the so-called prophets take themselves.
That's what I read prophecy for. I'm searching for grains of truth. Ideas. Possible futures. Paths through the fog. We *know* that the West is not in the book of Revelation. So... where do we go? When do we disappear? How?
I think we will get very small prophecies that are filled before the very end, to get the attention of non-believers on God. Big stuff? No. Our Lord has a timetable, and it's His and His alone.
And we, we are commanded to watch for His return.
(And sorry for A) taking so long and B) being so scattered. I am suddenly terribly busy just living life and doing phys therapy - and other things that you know about from our private correspondence).
Thursday, April 17, 2008
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
Modern Christian Revelation
I have been doing some searching on the net and came across this blog by a Baptist that illustrates, to me, what is wrong with accepting extra curricular prophecies, better than my previous post did.
One of the things that I should have mentioned is that God being beyond time and space, has foreseen everything already. We can't say that we are Biblical literalists and believe, for example in Noah and his ark, and then turn around and say God didn't foresee the United States and therefore the US isn't mentioned in the Bible. God has foreseen everything important. He has never forecast for anyone, a play by play account of their lives, although in the case of special people, he has occasionally seen fit to mention them via prophets in the Bible.
We are in a spiritual famine, where we are hungry for words from God and longing for his coming. All that is natural but also sets us up to want to believe there are still prophets. I should clarify that when I speak of prophets, I don't believe that there are any prophets sent by God who make Spirit-filled prophecies of the End Times. I believe that God however, can reassure a person on an individual level, with regard to things like health concerns. Not earth-shaking events, but personal events.
All that there is to say about the End Times has been said repeatedly by the prophets of the Old and New Testaments, with John the Beloved, being the last. There is no new revelation. The interesting thing about the so-called new revelations, whether it is Nostradamus or Washington, is that they are always vague and can never be pinned down to anything. It's like someone thinks that if they use Biblical language with 'thees' and 'thous', that is enough to fool people. Some of these so-called prophecies can't be contradicted that easily not because they are from God, but because evil disguises itself in the vagueness and the Biblical references and language.
I would say, that those who seek modern and new revelation are rather like the rich man in Luke 16, who begged Abraham to send someone to the world of the living so that he could bare witness to his brothers:
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If belief will not come with what we have already been given in terms of revelation in the canon, then belief will not come with new revelation.
Matthew 16 has something to say about this too:
(and you say) And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Layla
One of the things that I should have mentioned is that God being beyond time and space, has foreseen everything already. We can't say that we are Biblical literalists and believe, for example in Noah and his ark, and then turn around and say God didn't foresee the United States and therefore the US isn't mentioned in the Bible. God has foreseen everything important. He has never forecast for anyone, a play by play account of their lives, although in the case of special people, he has occasionally seen fit to mention them via prophets in the Bible.
We are in a spiritual famine, where we are hungry for words from God and longing for his coming. All that is natural but also sets us up to want to believe there are still prophets. I should clarify that when I speak of prophets, I don't believe that there are any prophets sent by God who make Spirit-filled prophecies of the End Times. I believe that God however, can reassure a person on an individual level, with regard to things like health concerns. Not earth-shaking events, but personal events.
All that there is to say about the End Times has been said repeatedly by the prophets of the Old and New Testaments, with John the Beloved, being the last. There is no new revelation. The interesting thing about the so-called new revelations, whether it is Nostradamus or Washington, is that they are always vague and can never be pinned down to anything. It's like someone thinks that if they use Biblical language with 'thees' and 'thous', that is enough to fool people. Some of these so-called prophecies can't be contradicted that easily not because they are from God, but because evil disguises itself in the vagueness and the Biblical references and language.
I would say, that those who seek modern and new revelation are rather like the rich man in Luke 16, who begged Abraham to send someone to the world of the living so that he could bare witness to his brothers:
Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
If belief will not come with what we have already been given in terms of revelation in the canon, then belief will not come with new revelation.
Matthew 16 has something to say about this too:
(and you say) And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Layla
Monday, April 14, 2008
more on prophets and prophecies
When you say, "I've always understood it to mean that you shouldn't take away or add to the Bible as a whole, and the book of Revelation in particular. "In the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesy..." that's more what I think of when I think of current prophecies" then how is it that you don't think that extra-biblical prophecies aren't adding or taking away from Revelations?
To me it would seem that any prophecy particularly as it refers to the End of Days, is adding. To me it seems as though you are saying that as long as other prophecies aren't attached directly and printed in the Bible, then they aren't in violation of the warning not to take away or add to Revelations, which to me, seems in keeping with the letter but not the spirit of the warning.
In the first place, we must remember that evil doesn't always manifest itself as something ugly. The serpent tempted Eve not with lies, but with a version of the truth: "thou shalt not surely die." And they didn't drop dead on the spot when they ate the forbidden fruit.
It seems to me that there is often a grain of truth in all of the religions, and that that is what the wolves in sheep's clothing use. They draw you in with a partial truth.
The verse from Joel that you quote about how "your young men shall see visions" is fulfilled with the first coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as in Acts 2, when Peter says,
these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
I am in complete agreement with you that every last word of a prophecy must come true, but what prophets have there been in the Christian church, from the Seventh Day Adventists, to The Crystal Cathedral guy who claimed God was going to take him home if he didn't raise X amount of dollars before such and such a date, who have ever been right? None.
I think that some people genuinely believe they have a special prophecy from God, but more often than not, it is the result of wishful thinking. Of wanting to be special enough to warrant a prophecy. I think that they 'prophecy' out of vanity as Ezekiel wrote of the prophets of Israel:
And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
If one doesn't draw the line at Revelations, and allows, the very weird thing by Washington to stand as a possibility, then why not allow the prophecies of the Mormons to stand, or the Koran?
I see the post-Revelation period as the period spoken about by Amos in Chapter 8:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
To me it seems as though Americans are almost desperate to be included in prophecy so they have to invent scenarios, like a good guy-bad guy script, in which they will be invaded and have some sort of role to play in the last days. That's how the Washington prophecy reads to me: all the "Son of the Republic" stuff. Maybe Washington actually did see something but who is to say it was a good angel or an evil one? But maybe he felt he had to invent as legitimacy for the new republic, since he was rebelling against the King. Kingship was traditionally believed to be handed down by God and whoever rebelled against the King rebelled against God. Kings could only be removed by God as in the story of Saul and David. David could have killed Saul but said, 'I will not lift my hand against my master, because he is the LORD's anointed.'
And later, when Saul is killed, David asks his killer,
David asked him, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?" Then David called one of his men and said, "Go, strike him down!" So he struck him down, and he died. For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the LORD's anointed.'
It may seem strange to you in this day and age, but Washington, as an example, would have been fully aware of the prohibition against killing or rebelling against any king. It may have bothered him to such an extent he either dreamed or invented a prophecy, the way people tend to do when they feel the need to rationalize their behaviour.
This whole idea of kingship being handed down from God is also evident in the stories of the Pharaohs - even Ramses, who held the Israelites captive. In the story God says basically that Pharaohs had become so full of himself that he thought he had somehow 'earned' his position and that is why God used Moses to kill two birds with one stone: to make Pharaoh realise that he was answerable to a higher power still, and to reveal God's majesty to the children of Israel, and also free them.
I know Americans are very proud of a democratically elected leader and the whole notion of kingship as being handed down from on high is probably all but forgotten, but even today, the Queen of England is anointed in the presence of God and the people. It was that very sacred act that made the Duke of Windsor's abdication 'for the woman he loved' so terrible. It wasn't about breaking a vow to people, or simply deciding that he didn't like the job or wasn't suited for it, but about breaking a sacred vow to God.
The prophecies in the Bible always have Israel at their centre. What role, if any, the US has to play, I don't know. The Bible isn't clear on that. I don't believe that the US has to be named straight out in order for it to play a role since the enemies of Israel are often identified by the direction in which they come vis-a-vis Israel.
I could see it if some interpret the US to be the evil nation that attacks Israel from the north, since Biblical prophecies of the end times always have the attack coming from the north, most especially from Babylon (Iraq), which the US is currently occupying., and Iran, which the US would dearly love to invade and probably will. None of which speaks for the US as the good guy in the end of the world scenario, but as the anti-christ.
But insofar as an invasion by the Chinese or anyone else, I just don't think the US on its home territory rates anywhere on God's scale since it doesn't rank a mention.
The US is too far away for China to want American territory. It's not like they can just march across the ocean and take over for Lebensraum as the Germans could march over Europe. That there could and probably will be a worldwide nuclear war, that affects the US and obviously Canada as well, sure, I can buy that. But an old-fashioned ground invasion just isn't plausible, nor is it even necessary in Biblical terms. And all in all, you don't have anything China wants, and most especially not democracy.
In Canada we worry about the US invading us - for our oil and our water, or just because we don't agree with you about some things. I can see that happening.
I don't believe that God gives his children an idea of what is about to happen. He gives us a broad idea in the form of the OT and NT, which boils down to that there is a day of reckoning coming for all of us, and that he sent us all in his infinite mercy, a redeemer, a Prince of Peace. I'm sure you've heard the saying that blood is thicker than water and you know how kids sometimes (used to) cut each other in order to become blood brothers and swear undying friendship? That's based on the same idea - that blood is thicker than water. When Jesus shed his blood on the cross, that is what he did for us - he claimed all who believe in Him as his true blood brothers, his kin.
But he never did give us a play by play account of all the nations in the world.
Layla
To me it would seem that any prophecy particularly as it refers to the End of Days, is adding. To me it seems as though you are saying that as long as other prophecies aren't attached directly and printed in the Bible, then they aren't in violation of the warning not to take away or add to Revelations, which to me, seems in keeping with the letter but not the spirit of the warning.
In the first place, we must remember that evil doesn't always manifest itself as something ugly. The serpent tempted Eve not with lies, but with a version of the truth: "thou shalt not surely die." And they didn't drop dead on the spot when they ate the forbidden fruit.
It seems to me that there is often a grain of truth in all of the religions, and that that is what the wolves in sheep's clothing use. They draw you in with a partial truth.
The verse from Joel that you quote about how "your young men shall see visions" is fulfilled with the first coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as in Acts 2, when Peter says,
these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
I am in complete agreement with you that every last word of a prophecy must come true, but what prophets have there been in the Christian church, from the Seventh Day Adventists, to The Crystal Cathedral guy who claimed God was going to take him home if he didn't raise X amount of dollars before such and such a date, who have ever been right? None.
I think that some people genuinely believe they have a special prophecy from God, but more often than not, it is the result of wishful thinking. Of wanting to be special enough to warrant a prophecy. I think that they 'prophecy' out of vanity as Ezekiel wrote of the prophets of Israel:
And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.
If one doesn't draw the line at Revelations, and allows, the very weird thing by Washington to stand as a possibility, then why not allow the prophecies of the Mormons to stand, or the Koran?
I see the post-Revelation period as the period spoken about by Amos in Chapter 8:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
To me it seems as though Americans are almost desperate to be included in prophecy so they have to invent scenarios, like a good guy-bad guy script, in which they will be invaded and have some sort of role to play in the last days. That's how the Washington prophecy reads to me: all the "Son of the Republic" stuff. Maybe Washington actually did see something but who is to say it was a good angel or an evil one? But maybe he felt he had to invent as legitimacy for the new republic, since he was rebelling against the King. Kingship was traditionally believed to be handed down by God and whoever rebelled against the King rebelled against God. Kings could only be removed by God as in the story of Saul and David. David could have killed Saul but said, 'I will not lift my hand against my master, because he is the LORD's anointed.'
And later, when Saul is killed, David asks his killer,
David asked him, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?" Then David called one of his men and said, "Go, strike him down!" So he struck him down, and he died. For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the LORD's anointed.'
It may seem strange to you in this day and age, but Washington, as an example, would have been fully aware of the prohibition against killing or rebelling against any king. It may have bothered him to such an extent he either dreamed or invented a prophecy, the way people tend to do when they feel the need to rationalize their behaviour.
This whole idea of kingship being handed down from God is also evident in the stories of the Pharaohs - even Ramses, who held the Israelites captive. In the story God says basically that Pharaohs had become so full of himself that he thought he had somehow 'earned' his position and that is why God used Moses to kill two birds with one stone: to make Pharaoh realise that he was answerable to a higher power still, and to reveal God's majesty to the children of Israel, and also free them.
I know Americans are very proud of a democratically elected leader and the whole notion of kingship as being handed down from on high is probably all but forgotten, but even today, the Queen of England is anointed in the presence of God and the people. It was that very sacred act that made the Duke of Windsor's abdication 'for the woman he loved' so terrible. It wasn't about breaking a vow to people, or simply deciding that he didn't like the job or wasn't suited for it, but about breaking a sacred vow to God.
The prophecies in the Bible always have Israel at their centre. What role, if any, the US has to play, I don't know. The Bible isn't clear on that. I don't believe that the US has to be named straight out in order for it to play a role since the enemies of Israel are often identified by the direction in which they come vis-a-vis Israel.
I could see it if some interpret the US to be the evil nation that attacks Israel from the north, since Biblical prophecies of the end times always have the attack coming from the north, most especially from Babylon (Iraq), which the US is currently occupying., and Iran, which the US would dearly love to invade and probably will. None of which speaks for the US as the good guy in the end of the world scenario, but as the anti-christ.
But insofar as an invasion by the Chinese or anyone else, I just don't think the US on its home territory rates anywhere on God's scale since it doesn't rank a mention.
The US is too far away for China to want American territory. It's not like they can just march across the ocean and take over for Lebensraum as the Germans could march over Europe. That there could and probably will be a worldwide nuclear war, that affects the US and obviously Canada as well, sure, I can buy that. But an old-fashioned ground invasion just isn't plausible, nor is it even necessary in Biblical terms. And all in all, you don't have anything China wants, and most especially not democracy.
In Canada we worry about the US invading us - for our oil and our water, or just because we don't agree with you about some things. I can see that happening.
I don't believe that God gives his children an idea of what is about to happen. He gives us a broad idea in the form of the OT and NT, which boils down to that there is a day of reckoning coming for all of us, and that he sent us all in his infinite mercy, a redeemer, a Prince of Peace. I'm sure you've heard the saying that blood is thicker than water and you know how kids sometimes (used to) cut each other in order to become blood brothers and swear undying friendship? That's based on the same idea - that blood is thicker than water. When Jesus shed his blood on the cross, that is what he did for us - he claimed all who believe in Him as his true blood brothers, his kin.
But he never did give us a play by play account of all the nations in the world.
Layla
Tuesday, April 8, 2008
Prophecy Addict
I suppose I could be counted as one of the people that looks forward to prophecies. Instead of interpreting the last verse of Revelation as a caution to not allow prophecy into my life, I've always understood it to mean that you shouldn't take away or add to the Bible as a whole, and the book of Revelation in particular. "In the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesy..." that's more what I think of when I think of current prophecies.
However, I look at extra-Biblical prophecies primarily as entertainment or as warnings, or sometimes just as "what-ifs". If they A) Don't come true to the last smidgen - they're not of God (that's his OT way to test a prophet). B) If they disagree with the Word, or cause you to doubt anything in the Word, they're not of God.
I'm interested in prophecy. I *do* think God gives some (even most) of His children some fairly good "feelings" about what is coming. I am positive that He puts us where we need to be, when we need to be there. But for me, it's more about my personal desire to have Christ come and take us Home... I like to put my thoughts there, so of course anything that aims me that way is welcome.
*Something* is coming to end America (and Canada too, most likely). If it's an economic depression or an invasion, it makes little difference. No one you know disagrees with that... Could China/the East attack the US? Um. Yeah. Hardcore. We're even causing them to lose a tremendous amount of face over the Olympics this year... not so much with the happy. And we owe them a lot of money, what with trade deficits and all. Am I making my personal plans with that taken into account? No. I live near a port on the West Coast. If God wants me moved, He'll move me!
Extra Biblical prophecy should be stringently tested and watched closely. But automatically false? No - I don't think so, not at all.
However, I look at extra-Biblical prophecies primarily as entertainment or as warnings, or sometimes just as "what-ifs". If they A) Don't come true to the last smidgen - they're not of God (that's his OT way to test a prophet). B) If they disagree with the Word, or cause you to doubt anything in the Word, they're not of God.
I'm interested in prophecy. I *do* think God gives some (even most) of His children some fairly good "feelings" about what is coming. I am positive that He puts us where we need to be, when we need to be there. But for me, it's more about my personal desire to have Christ come and take us Home... I like to put my thoughts there, so of course anything that aims me that way is welcome.
*Something* is coming to end America (and Canada too, most likely). If it's an economic depression or an invasion, it makes little difference. No one you know disagrees with that... Could China/the East attack the US? Um. Yeah. Hardcore. We're even causing them to lose a tremendous amount of face over the Olympics this year... not so much with the happy. And we owe them a lot of money, what with trade deficits and all. Am I making my personal plans with that taken into account? No. I live near a port on the West Coast. If God wants me moved, He'll move me!
Extra Biblical prophecy should be stringently tested and watched closely. But automatically false? No - I don't think so, not at all.
Monday, April 7, 2008
Visions: True or False
I've been wondering about prophetic-type visions for a while now. What is it about modern visions, or visions not in the canon of the Bible, that would make Christians take them seriously or not?
The US seems to be a particular hot bed of such prophecies, from Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons to the evangelical tent preachers who kept predicting the end of the world.
Recently I came across a vision that George Washington had and there seems to be a segment of Christians that take it seriously right down to interpretations ranging from an invasion of US soil by the Chinese to this.
I have always believed that the prophetic age closed with the book of Revelations. We were always taught that new prophecy is blasphemy, according to Revelations 22:18-19:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What do you think about this and if you accept prophecies outside the Bible, where do you draw the line?
Layla
The US seems to be a particular hot bed of such prophecies, from Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormons to the evangelical tent preachers who kept predicting the end of the world.
Recently I came across a vision that George Washington had and there seems to be a segment of Christians that take it seriously right down to interpretations ranging from an invasion of US soil by the Chinese to this.
I have always believed that the prophetic age closed with the book of Revelations. We were always taught that new prophecy is blasphemy, according to Revelations 22:18-19:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What do you think about this and if you accept prophecies outside the Bible, where do you draw the line?
Layla
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