Let's take this slow and see what I've misunderstood. I Googled for Christian persecution and Prop 8 (yes, I knew what that was about) and read some blogs, watched a video of what happened in the Castro district. I'm aware that the church was for Prop 8, and that the Mormons and Catholics seem primarily to have been financing/or for it, and I'm aware that it overturned same-sex marriage and that there's now a pending court ruling which will likely overturn Prop 8 and allow same-sex marriage.
And obviously gays are upset about Prop 8.
But persecution? Even if one believes that homosexuality is a sin against God, since there is no law against Christianity and no law that is intended to force Christians into becoming married homosexuals I don't see how this qualifies as anything resembling persecution. Christian rights aren't being violated. Christians are imposing their beliefs instead on non-Christians. So the non-Christians are being persecuted, if anyone is being persecuted at all.
I agree with your husband - Western Christians haven't the faintest idea what persecution is. Instead of looking for trouble in the Castro district, they could be feeding the hungry or housing the homeless. Less hymn singing in gay areas and more doing things that would bring honor and glory to Christ. Neither the Christians nor their protesters acted particularly well in my opinion.
I thought I basically said the same thing in my post? My concern is that when Christians meddle in the governing of the world, in thinking that their Christian ideas of morality (which I am not saying I disagree with) can be or should be imposed on the State, they are setting a legal precedent for their own secular freedom to be taken away at some future date.
In my opinion, it is the very meddling and insistence in the US of Christians wanting to take their Christian agenda to governments, federal and state, that has caused the very things you have talked about in relation to your doctor or your pharmacist. You open yourself up to others when you make religious issues out of government. If state and religion are supposed to be separate, why does the church keep interfering in government? That is asking for the government to interfere in the church.
I don't get that.
Tuesday, November 25, 2008
Monday, November 24, 2008
An epic misunderstanding
I think that this is the most profound misunderstanding we've had in months! I do *not* think that Christians are persecuted because of Prop 8*. I was trying to get your thoughts about the foo-foo-rah about the aftermath. But since it seems that you didn't know about the foo-foo-rah... I'll have to tell you a bit about it to explain.
Prop 8 was pushed heavily by the church, and funded thereby. Not only Protestants, but the Catholic church and the Mormon church heavily funded the "Protect Marriage" campaign. No surprises there, I'm sure.
In the aftermath of the "Yes" vote, the homosexual community has risen up, and there have been numerous marches against large, visible churches, particularly the Mormon church. I hear that somewhere in Castro, activists broke into a church service and threw condoms.
Because of this, and because of individual unpleasantness like "Yes" groups being flipped off or sworn at and people being beaten up (again, very individually), a lot of the blogosphere is crying "persecution". The only blog I read that countered this thinking was the blog on revelife, which said, "um... guys... this isn't persecution. You don't know what you're talking about".
So the question I was trying to ask was, "Why do you think Christians in the blogosphere are crying persecution, and do you have any thoughts about Christian persecution in the social sphere to add".
I have a number of thoughts on this issue, which I'd put down quickly before, but would like to expand on at length. I was gonna blog this separately, but might as well put it here and copy/paste, since I've not managed to even start this essay separately.
1) We know that persecution has to come to the Church as a sign of the End Times, and most of the conservative protestants who would take an interest in the one issue take interest in the other. I know I want to go Home, want the Bridegroom to return, so of course I take all signs hopefully - even the ones that mean personal inconvenience.
2) My husband brought this one up. Most people of my generation who live in the West have absolutely no idea about what real hardship is. We don't know about war, we don't know about violence, we don't know about any of that on a PERSONAL level, no matter how many bloody videogames we play or how much TV news we watch.
3) We know that there are martyrs to Christ right now in other parts of the world, and we feel vaguely guilty about not being part of that movement. It's not particularly comfortable, knowing that you're the beginning of the church of Laodicea.
4) America was formed by Protestants. For four-hundred years, protestant Christianity has been the approved of norm. "Christian" used to be a synonym for "good/nice" in the same way that "white" used to be a synonym for "pleasant/civilized/kind". The former word didn't have anything to do with the person's religious associations any more than the latter word had to do with the absence of a tan. The dominant paradigm of Christian = good is that hardwired into our culture. (Which of course it OUGHT to equate, but that's another post we've covered often). So, when people who were raised to go to church and potlucks and be 10% more modest than the world at large suddently aren't "good" by default anymore - it's freaky.
I do know that individual Christians are being persecuted in America for their religious beliefs. My OB/GYN is... I wrote about him before. There are pharamacists who are. There are city clerks who got fired. *That* is persecution. There always have been people who have lost jobs because they wouldn't be dishonest. There always will be people who will lose friends, whose families will be permanently at odds because they follow Christ. We were promised that, it shouldn't be a surprise. Being the target of marches is *not* persecution.
Eyes open, we see the tide change and turn against Christian = nice. Eyes open, we see what that means, and will mean. But we are grasping at what the world will be like in ten years, or five - not what it is today. And I think we *are* dragging the word persecution down into non-meaning when we use it today, even as my emotions are with those who are doing so.
Why do YOU think we're doing that? Have you seen it for yourself? Thoughts? I think the Western Church is going to have a BIG "come to Jesus meeting" (Southern expression) when we are actually facing real hardship for our beliefs.
*Prop 8 defines marriage in California as only between a man and a woman. We voted this into law in 2000, the Supreme Court of Cali overturned it this Spring, and then prop 8 made it part of our state's constitution. Hope that clarifies.
...........
I am very sorry to hear that you're still in mourning for your dog. I agree with your belief that animals were certainly not meant for just food and work, I think they were supposed to be much more than that. Glad to hear that your other lady is doing better. Stitches are no fun!
Prop 8 was pushed heavily by the church, and funded thereby. Not only Protestants, but the Catholic church and the Mormon church heavily funded the "Protect Marriage" campaign. No surprises there, I'm sure.
In the aftermath of the "Yes" vote, the homosexual community has risen up, and there have been numerous marches against large, visible churches, particularly the Mormon church. I hear that somewhere in Castro, activists broke into a church service and threw condoms.
Because of this, and because of individual unpleasantness like "Yes" groups being flipped off or sworn at and people being beaten up (again, very individually), a lot of the blogosphere is crying "persecution". The only blog I read that countered this thinking was the blog on revelife, which said, "um... guys... this isn't persecution. You don't know what you're talking about".
So the question I was trying to ask was, "Why do you think Christians in the blogosphere are crying persecution, and do you have any thoughts about Christian persecution in the social sphere to add".
I have a number of thoughts on this issue, which I'd put down quickly before, but would like to expand on at length. I was gonna blog this separately, but might as well put it here and copy/paste, since I've not managed to even start this essay separately.
1) We know that persecution has to come to the Church as a sign of the End Times, and most of the conservative protestants who would take an interest in the one issue take interest in the other. I know I want to go Home, want the Bridegroom to return, so of course I take all signs hopefully - even the ones that mean personal inconvenience.
2) My husband brought this one up. Most people of my generation who live in the West have absolutely no idea about what real hardship is. We don't know about war, we don't know about violence, we don't know about any of that on a PERSONAL level, no matter how many bloody videogames we play or how much TV news we watch.
3) We know that there are martyrs to Christ right now in other parts of the world, and we feel vaguely guilty about not being part of that movement. It's not particularly comfortable, knowing that you're the beginning of the church of Laodicea.
4) America was formed by Protestants. For four-hundred years, protestant Christianity has been the approved of norm. "Christian" used to be a synonym for "good/nice" in the same way that "white" used to be a synonym for "pleasant/civilized/kind". The former word didn't have anything to do with the person's religious associations any more than the latter word had to do with the absence of a tan. The dominant paradigm of Christian = good is that hardwired into our culture. (Which of course it OUGHT to equate, but that's another post we've covered often). So, when people who were raised to go to church and potlucks and be 10% more modest than the world at large suddently aren't "good" by default anymore - it's freaky.
I do know that individual Christians are being persecuted in America for their religious beliefs. My OB/GYN is... I wrote about him before. There are pharamacists who are. There are city clerks who got fired. *That* is persecution. There always have been people who have lost jobs because they wouldn't be dishonest. There always will be people who will lose friends, whose families will be permanently at odds because they follow Christ. We were promised that, it shouldn't be a surprise. Being the target of marches is *not* persecution.
Eyes open, we see the tide change and turn against Christian = nice. Eyes open, we see what that means, and will mean. But we are grasping at what the world will be like in ten years, or five - not what it is today. And I think we *are* dragging the word persecution down into non-meaning when we use it today, even as my emotions are with those who are doing so.
Why do YOU think we're doing that? Have you seen it for yourself? Thoughts? I think the Western Church is going to have a BIG "come to Jesus meeting" (Southern expression) when we are actually facing real hardship for our beliefs.
*Prop 8 defines marriage in California as only between a man and a woman. We voted this into law in 2000, the Supreme Court of Cali overturned it this Spring, and then prop 8 made it part of our state's constitution. Hope that clarifies.
...........
I am very sorry to hear that you're still in mourning for your dog. I agree with your belief that animals were certainly not meant for just food and work, I think they were supposed to be much more than that. Glad to hear that your other lady is doing better. Stitches are no fun!
Sunday, November 23, 2008
Persecution, Prop 8
I probably should be embarrassed to admit that I prayed very hard for my dog considering there are so many people suffering in the world. I rather shy away from the use of the word "miracle" but she certainly looked like she was on her deathbed. The vet said she had multiple organ failure and she seemed to be in a coma for about a week. But dying itself seemed to come hard - this was back in September.
I really prefer never to put an animal down but neither do I want an animal to suffer. My husband and I had finally made up our mind that if she didn't pass away over that particular September weekend, we would take her to the vet to have her euthanized.
That weekend, since she couldn't walk, we scooped her up using two blankets as slings and carried her outside, took her to all her favorite places. And eventually she was able to put weight on her front legs, so I walked her around with a sling supporting her back legs. I fed her people food - whatever she would eat, around the clock, and would you believe she recovered well enough to go hunting for mice? She had a lovely, lovely 4 weeks of life after that, including the day before she died.
Then just when I started to think I had hallucinated the condition she was in previously, she took a turn for the worse. I sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her and she passed away in my arms, as peacefully as any child of God going to sleep for the night.
I often think that everything I know for sure about God, I've learned from animals. There is a faithfulness and a lack of guile, and a forgiveness of even the foot that kicks them, that points the way to how we ought to be ourselves. As one prayer goes, "Lord, help me to be half the person my dog thinks I am."
I know that traditional theology doesn't allow for animals to have souls but then why did Balaam's ass speak to him about being just to animals? Why does God make a point of telling humanity "thou shalt not muzzle the ox treading out the corn" or not "seething a calf in its mother's milk?"
Why, in the future vision of the earth, do the lamb and the lion lie down together, if not to point out that even the animals have suffered in a pre-redemption earth?
Animals were given to us for more than food and meat since there is no evidence to indicate that was their original purpose in the Garden of Eden.
I miss her a lot. I am not through crying yet. I really hope my animal friends are all waiting to meet me when it's my turn to go.
My other dog had her surgery and now the challenge is to keep her from moving much for the next two months while her leg heals. She'll have the staples removed last week but she's already been removing them herself with her teeth.
Well, I tried to go to the site you referenced as having a discussion about the Prop 8 thing and couldn't find the conversation you were referring to, but I gather you're asking about gay marriage and Christians feeling persecuted because of that?
I was raised to believe that persecution was the natural state of the Christian - the best state - the state that refines. So I suppose based on that, for Christians who believe that homosexual marriage is wrong on a secular level of government, maybe they ought to be rejoicing and being exceedingly glad that they are being persecuted by homosexual marriage?
As far as me personally, I would find it hard to make the leap to feeling persecuted as a Christian by a state allowing same-sex marriage. The state's business is different in my eyes than the business of Christians. If Christians believe homosexuality is wrong and condemns souls to hell, then by all means, if they feel so called, they ought to make that point - in churches, to their homosexual friends - out of a spirit of caring for the mortality of the other person's soul.
Protest on an individual level, in other words. One soul at a time as God has seen fit to make souls cross paths to be guided.
As far as goodness and niceness being equated with Christianity, in the Matthew 5 version of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says just the opposite: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
He says that even the publicans/sinners do good. That is the reason for turning the other cheek, and that is the very foundation of nonresistance and pacifism - to do more than just "niceness" requires. Niceness, kindness, compassion, charity, love and forgiveness are not only qualities possessed by Christians. I know more compassionate atheists than I know Christians. Could just be the circles in which I hang though. I'm not saying there aren't compassionate Christians.
I find it hard to get worked up about abortion on the grounds that it is murdering a person when there are Christians who think it is not only a-okay to go to war and kill people who are actually born, but that it is God's will to do so. I mean, I happen to believe that a fetus is a person but I also believe that an enemy is a person. Maybe when - as in when-hell-freezes-over-when - states abolish not only abortion but also state-sponsored killings in the form of wars, I'll get excited about homosexual marriage. Until then, I just can't get terribly interested in it.
I really prefer never to put an animal down but neither do I want an animal to suffer. My husband and I had finally made up our mind that if she didn't pass away over that particular September weekend, we would take her to the vet to have her euthanized.
That weekend, since she couldn't walk, we scooped her up using two blankets as slings and carried her outside, took her to all her favorite places. And eventually she was able to put weight on her front legs, so I walked her around with a sling supporting her back legs. I fed her people food - whatever she would eat, around the clock, and would you believe she recovered well enough to go hunting for mice? She had a lovely, lovely 4 weeks of life after that, including the day before she died.
Then just when I started to think I had hallucinated the condition she was in previously, she took a turn for the worse. I sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her and she passed away in my arms, as peacefully as any child of God going to sleep for the night.
I often think that everything I know for sure about God, I've learned from animals. There is a faithfulness and a lack of guile, and a forgiveness of even the foot that kicks them, that points the way to how we ought to be ourselves. As one prayer goes, "Lord, help me to be half the person my dog thinks I am."
I know that traditional theology doesn't allow for animals to have souls but then why did Balaam's ass speak to him about being just to animals? Why does God make a point of telling humanity "thou shalt not muzzle the ox treading out the corn" or not "seething a calf in its mother's milk?"
Why, in the future vision of the earth, do the lamb and the lion lie down together, if not to point out that even the animals have suffered in a pre-redemption earth?
Animals were given to us for more than food and meat since there is no evidence to indicate that was their original purpose in the Garden of Eden.
I miss her a lot. I am not through crying yet. I really hope my animal friends are all waiting to meet me when it's my turn to go.
My other dog had her surgery and now the challenge is to keep her from moving much for the next two months while her leg heals. She'll have the staples removed last week but she's already been removing them herself with her teeth.
Well, I tried to go to the site you referenced as having a discussion about the Prop 8 thing and couldn't find the conversation you were referring to, but I gather you're asking about gay marriage and Christians feeling persecuted because of that?
I was raised to believe that persecution was the natural state of the Christian - the best state - the state that refines. So I suppose based on that, for Christians who believe that homosexual marriage is wrong on a secular level of government, maybe they ought to be rejoicing and being exceedingly glad that they are being persecuted by homosexual marriage?
As far as me personally, I would find it hard to make the leap to feeling persecuted as a Christian by a state allowing same-sex marriage. The state's business is different in my eyes than the business of Christians. If Christians believe homosexuality is wrong and condemns souls to hell, then by all means, if they feel so called, they ought to make that point - in churches, to their homosexual friends - out of a spirit of caring for the mortality of the other person's soul.
Protest on an individual level, in other words. One soul at a time as God has seen fit to make souls cross paths to be guided.
As far as goodness and niceness being equated with Christianity, in the Matthew 5 version of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus says just the opposite: For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
He says that even the publicans/sinners do good. That is the reason for turning the other cheek, and that is the very foundation of nonresistance and pacifism - to do more than just "niceness" requires. Niceness, kindness, compassion, charity, love and forgiveness are not only qualities possessed by Christians. I know more compassionate atheists than I know Christians. Could just be the circles in which I hang though. I'm not saying there aren't compassionate Christians.
I find it hard to get worked up about abortion on the grounds that it is murdering a person when there are Christians who think it is not only a-okay to go to war and kill people who are actually born, but that it is God's will to do so. I mean, I happen to believe that a fetus is a person but I also believe that an enemy is a person. Maybe when - as in when-hell-freezes-over-when - states abolish not only abortion but also state-sponsored killings in the form of wars, I'll get excited about homosexual marriage. Until then, I just can't get terribly interested in it.
Saturday, November 22, 2008
Persecution and Police
I'm so sorry to hear about your dog! I know you were expecting her death, but it's never easy, even when we know such things are coming. Are you doing okay?
The police & firemen being put together is just my sloppy thinking. Police and firemen are always teamed here in the States whenever you speak of them as a group - their unions work together most of the time, take the same sides politically. Public servants willing to undertake danger? Police, firemen, soldiers... it tends to fall into the same category in my brain. And both firemen I know well would do equally well as police officers. As I said, just sloppy categorization.
I've been interested in something someone on revelife (at xanga) said in regards to persecution and Prop. 8 here in Cali. I wanted to get your thoughts on the persecution of Christians and why we here in the States are going nuts just 'cause we're getting snubbed.
Messily, I think some of the things are we're just too used to equating "christian" with "good/nice" and having them de-equated is shocking. Another would be a half-wish to be shown as "real Christians" and a grasping after an end-times kind of paradigm. (This ignores the millions of Christians who are being Persecuted with a capital P... but we've talked about nationalism and American christians before). I guess we want to be part of God's Army... so long as we don't break any nails? Church has equalled safe for SO LONG here... I really think it's messing with people's heads.
Anyway, I know you have lots to say about the persecuted church, and I'm pretty sure people flipping off churchgoers or marching - or even throwing condoms into a church service - is pretty laughable on the grand scheme of things.
Hoping you are doing better....
Hearth
The police & firemen being put together is just my sloppy thinking. Police and firemen are always teamed here in the States whenever you speak of them as a group - their unions work together most of the time, take the same sides politically. Public servants willing to undertake danger? Police, firemen, soldiers... it tends to fall into the same category in my brain. And both firemen I know well would do equally well as police officers. As I said, just sloppy categorization.
I've been interested in something someone on revelife (at xanga) said in regards to persecution and Prop. 8 here in Cali. I wanted to get your thoughts on the persecution of Christians and why we here in the States are going nuts just 'cause we're getting snubbed.
Messily, I think some of the things are we're just too used to equating "christian" with "good/nice" and having them de-equated is shocking. Another would be a half-wish to be shown as "real Christians" and a grasping after an end-times kind of paradigm. (This ignores the millions of Christians who are being Persecuted with a capital P... but we've talked about nationalism and American christians before). I guess we want to be part of God's Army... so long as we don't break any nails? Church has equalled safe for SO LONG here... I really think it's messing with people's heads.
Anyway, I know you have lots to say about the persecuted church, and I'm pretty sure people flipping off churchgoers or marching - or even throwing condoms into a church service - is pretty laughable on the grand scheme of things.
Hoping you are doing better....
Hearth
Thursday, November 13, 2008
I haven't fallen off a mountain
My old dog died a month ago - peacefully, contentedly in my arms. And in the meantime, one of my other dogs tore a ligament and is having major surgery tomorrow. And I'm having computer problems. If it ain't one thing, it is the other.
I did have an intelligent response waiting in my head but it seems to have deserted me. However, I am thinking, wrt Mennonites and firemen (and who knows what else) somehow left the wrong impression. Mennonite theology allows particpation in everything that does not take a human life, so clearly, being a fireman wouldn't be out of bounds, no matter how strict the interpretation.
If I may ask, I'd like to know why you would have that impression? I have a number of folks in my family who are in volunteer fire departments. Policing is another matter, in the sense that obviously, you might be required at some point to take a life. However, as I said, all of this is traditional anabaptist beliefs and not necessarily something that is followed by most Mennonites today unless you go to the Amish.
I also have a lot of policemen in my family. I honor them. I pray for them. I recognize that they are performing a valuable service. That being said, I do not entirely approve on account of my anabaptist beliefs. None of them have had to take a life to date and I hope they never have to. It isn't that Mennonites don't recognize the need for policemen or have their heads so far in the clouds that they think God will save them and they are not to use their brains or common sense - i t is rather that Mennonites/Anabaptists believe that society does need all those things, including soldiers - but that given the fallen nature of the world, God knows that, and given that there is no shortage of unbelievers at any given time, it is for those unbelievers to do those things if they wish to.
While we are told to pray for our goverments and those in power, we are not told that we have to like an unjust ruler. God has ordained earthly nations and earthly rulers and when He has His proverbial nose full of thier unrighteousness, then He will send armies or allow circumstances that can provide for the overturning of unjust governments.
it isn't wrong for the children of the Most High to enjoy peace and freedom, and to appreciate those things even if they themselves believe it is a sin to fight for those things. It's like when Jesus paid his taxes, it didn't mean he approved of Caesar or wasn't aware of what Rome was all about.
I remember when it was utterly shameful - life ruining - to become pregnant and be unmarried. I remember how those girls were talked about. It isn't secular society that made it seem so sinful but Christian society. And that was a very big reason for an abortion. I can't swear at all that if I had become pregnant when I was a young teenager, that I wouldn't have had an abortion if they had been legal then (they weren't) in order to avoid the social consequences and to avoid telling my parents.
And yes, many churches support homes for pregnant teenagers. I still wonder how many would take unwanted children - handicapped children - into their own homes? Until they do, it's meaningless and along the lines of "until you've walked a mile in their shoes."
Well, wrt your comment about in a "perfect" Church - the Church ought to be perfect. We're told to be perfect. The fact that we can't be shouldn't be something we keep bringing up, as in "Christians aren't perfect, just saved." That is a cop-out. We know we aren't perfect but that idea makes people think they don't even need to try to be perfect.
As far as in that same perfect church, one should be living their faith and evangelizing - to me in a certain way that doesn't make sense because to live one's faith is to evangelize automatically. Your life is your witness.
As far as political involvement is concerned, again, to pick one candidate over another always means picking one evil to somehow be less evil in God's eyes than another evil since we do not live in a theocracy. Democracy is a great thing. It allows me to hold this opinion. But no one can lead a country democratically and be fair to all peoples and all faiths while legislating so-called Christian values.
In doing so as much as they do in the States, Christians don't seem to realise they are sowing the seeds of their own demise, that the very tolerance that allows them to practise what they will religiously, is the tolerance that they would deny to others, thereby making a democracy not a democracy. And sure as shootin', even if certain Christian ideas of morality became the law of the land, they would be at odds with other Christians' heartfelt interpretation of the Bible. And also sure as sunrise, those very same laws through which a Christian agenda took away the rights of non-Christians will be used to take away their own rights. And that concerns me.
I don't know how much you read on the link, but here is something that may explain better the attitude of anabaptists toward government.
I take a very deep interest in politics and my non-voting has only been for the last two federal elections here. Most Mennonites today vote. There are many Mennonites in powerful positions in the Canadian government. I voted from the time I was 18 up to recently when I came to the conclusion that the early anabaptists had it right. It is not God's way that he would pick one evil as somehow less evil than another evil, in a perverse version of "Sophie's Choice."
And like most of the world, I too was mesmerized by your federal election and sat watching the results and cheering loudly and weeping while wearing my Barack Obama T-shirt. But do I think that everything he stands for is in accordance with the Bible? No. Neither is everything in accordance with the Bible with the McCain campaign.
On a secular level I am glad he won. Americans may think they were electing a President but for the rest of the world, you were electing a world leader. Like it or not, all of the world has suffered from American navel-gazing and my hope - my secular hope - is that America will be respected in the world again. It hasn't been since the Vietnam War.
On a spiritual level, I know that there will be no righteousness, no end to human suffering and injustice until our Lord comes. I don't have faith in Obama (or anyone else). I have faith in God and every day say, Maranatha, Lord Jesus.
Layla
I did have an intelligent response waiting in my head but it seems to have deserted me. However, I am thinking, wrt Mennonites and firemen (and who knows what else) somehow left the wrong impression. Mennonite theology allows particpation in everything that does not take a human life, so clearly, being a fireman wouldn't be out of bounds, no matter how strict the interpretation.
If I may ask, I'd like to know why you would have that impression? I have a number of folks in my family who are in volunteer fire departments. Policing is another matter, in the sense that obviously, you might be required at some point to take a life. However, as I said, all of this is traditional anabaptist beliefs and not necessarily something that is followed by most Mennonites today unless you go to the Amish.
I also have a lot of policemen in my family. I honor them. I pray for them. I recognize that they are performing a valuable service. That being said, I do not entirely approve on account of my anabaptist beliefs. None of them have had to take a life to date and I hope they never have to. It isn't that Mennonites don't recognize the need for policemen or have their heads so far in the clouds that they think God will save them and they are not to use their brains or common sense - i t is rather that Mennonites/Anabaptists believe that society does need all those things, including soldiers - but that given the fallen nature of the world, God knows that, and given that there is no shortage of unbelievers at any given time, it is for those unbelievers to do those things if they wish to.
While we are told to pray for our goverments and those in power, we are not told that we have to like an unjust ruler. God has ordained earthly nations and earthly rulers and when He has His proverbial nose full of thier unrighteousness, then He will send armies or allow circumstances that can provide for the overturning of unjust governments.
it isn't wrong for the children of the Most High to enjoy peace and freedom, and to appreciate those things even if they themselves believe it is a sin to fight for those things. It's like when Jesus paid his taxes, it didn't mean he approved of Caesar or wasn't aware of what Rome was all about.
I remember when it was utterly shameful - life ruining - to become pregnant and be unmarried. I remember how those girls were talked about. It isn't secular society that made it seem so sinful but Christian society. And that was a very big reason for an abortion. I can't swear at all that if I had become pregnant when I was a young teenager, that I wouldn't have had an abortion if they had been legal then (they weren't) in order to avoid the social consequences and to avoid telling my parents.
And yes, many churches support homes for pregnant teenagers. I still wonder how many would take unwanted children - handicapped children - into their own homes? Until they do, it's meaningless and along the lines of "until you've walked a mile in their shoes."
Well, wrt your comment about in a "perfect" Church - the Church ought to be perfect. We're told to be perfect. The fact that we can't be shouldn't be something we keep bringing up, as in "Christians aren't perfect, just saved." That is a cop-out. We know we aren't perfect but that idea makes people think they don't even need to try to be perfect.
As far as in that same perfect church, one should be living their faith and evangelizing - to me in a certain way that doesn't make sense because to live one's faith is to evangelize automatically. Your life is your witness.
As far as political involvement is concerned, again, to pick one candidate over another always means picking one evil to somehow be less evil in God's eyes than another evil since we do not live in a theocracy. Democracy is a great thing. It allows me to hold this opinion. But no one can lead a country democratically and be fair to all peoples and all faiths while legislating so-called Christian values.
In doing so as much as they do in the States, Christians don't seem to realise they are sowing the seeds of their own demise, that the very tolerance that allows them to practise what they will religiously, is the tolerance that they would deny to others, thereby making a democracy not a democracy. And sure as shootin', even if certain Christian ideas of morality became the law of the land, they would be at odds with other Christians' heartfelt interpretation of the Bible. And also sure as sunrise, those very same laws through which a Christian agenda took away the rights of non-Christians will be used to take away their own rights. And that concerns me.
I don't know how much you read on the link, but here is something that may explain better the attitude of anabaptists toward government.
I take a very deep interest in politics and my non-voting has only been for the last two federal elections here. Most Mennonites today vote. There are many Mennonites in powerful positions in the Canadian government. I voted from the time I was 18 up to recently when I came to the conclusion that the early anabaptists had it right. It is not God's way that he would pick one evil as somehow less evil than another evil, in a perverse version of "Sophie's Choice."
And like most of the world, I too was mesmerized by your federal election and sat watching the results and cheering loudly and weeping while wearing my Barack Obama T-shirt. But do I think that everything he stands for is in accordance with the Bible? No. Neither is everything in accordance with the Bible with the McCain campaign.
On a secular level I am glad he won. Americans may think they were electing a President but for the rest of the world, you were electing a world leader. Like it or not, all of the world has suffered from American navel-gazing and my hope - my secular hope - is that America will be respected in the world again. It hasn't been since the Vietnam War.
On a spiritual level, I know that there will be no righteousness, no end to human suffering and injustice until our Lord comes. I don't have faith in Obama (or anyone else). I have faith in God and every day say, Maranatha, Lord Jesus.
Layla
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