The part of the preamble that you quote is the part that I think is an hysterical reaction to an hysterical reaction over 9/11. It reads rather melodramatically, in my opinion. If they have a point, I think the overblown language kind of overwhelms it. I don't think it is entirely accurate anyway, even if I try to overlook the language. I don't believe that all the US's notions of democracy and justice are 'twisted' at all. The US was not the inventor of democracy. Nor do I know what 'the historical misconceptions of its "Christian heritage" mean in this context since it wasn't intended to be a theocracy and it isn't clear to me what the writers expect the US to be.
I think they are referring to the hyper patriots who believe that America and Christianity are synonyms but for me it is hard to tell in these Theses, what the writers think America should be. But the hyperbolic language and the use of "Yahweh" for "God" is a turn-off for me.
Why say "Yahweh" when the way common people express it is as "God?" Even the Jews do that, although they might spell G-d. I'm not disputing that Yahweh/Jehovah is used in the Bible but calling him "God" is also not wrong. We're not calling him "George" for instance. But in using "Yahweh" it is as though they want to make a distinction where none exists, hair-splitting. It is as though they are looking to seem educated but they seem as dumb in that unnecessary distinction as those people who think that Muslims worship Mohammad/that "Mohammad" is the name of the Muslim God. Or "Allah." "Allah" means "God" in Arabic. It's not some new and unknown god. It's no different than if I pray in German, mein Gott.
But I think that there is some Biblical justification for repentance and praying for a nation even when we do not share the ideas that we are repenting from. When you say "And with the separation of church and state, how do we decide which actions to repent?" this would be my thinking.
That Christians are never part of the state. God does not see separation of church and state. It is something that He allows. But I see no indication that He sees that as a good thing anywhere in the Bible, the live and let live attitude. Since I am a citizen of the Kingdom of God and not of the state, I have no problem praying for the state, and maranatha, Lord Jesus, even so, come quickly.
What you are talking about when you talk about the dilemma of how to choose what to pray for in a secular state, is oddly enough, exactly what my objection is to Christians not realising that they are citizens of one country only - the Kingdom of Heaven. Which has not yet, but which will, absorb all states, when God Himself will walk once again among us and wipe our tears. What you describe are torn loyalties, and we must serve either one or the other. We can't serve two masters. We can't separate ourselves into multiple personalities and say this is the law for the state and I support it because I see no other option, and then hold a different view in terms of our religion.
So I must pray for all the things that my understanding (which is limited) tells me a Christian ought to pray for. I can pray for leaders, that they will be just. I can pray that the death penalty, or abortion or whatever else I might consider a sin is something that doesn't happen in the state. What I think is wrong though, and where I do think that America has gone wrong - is in thinking that it is possible to serve both masters - to do what the state requires, and which that old idol of personal freedom requires, even if I personally believe it is wrong.
I only mention America as having gone wrong there because the Theses is so geared towards America specifically, and also because Americans, even in politics are so vocal about their faith and there are those who believe that what is right in the Bible should be imposed on the state. Other nations are just as wrong - only I can't think of any but Islamic republics that are as vocal politically on that as Americans.
I don't know - I just don't see a problem with my praying, "Lord, have mercy on Canada. I hope you give us good leaders and good laws. And I am so sorry for the sins we as a nation have committed. Forgive us - we know not what we do."
That is the kind of repentance I think that the writers of the Theses are referring to, although it is hard to tell from the convoluted language. There is that general repentance and the repentance of one's personal sins. I think we need to do both.
We are told that I will bless them that bless you and curse them that curse you regarding Israel and the Jews. But I don't think I agree that there is a measurable correlation in US history with regards to Israel. I would like to see the site you mention. Neither Canada nor the US nor any other country wanted the Jews at all, and even turned them back during WW2. Canada and the US have both been great supporters of Israel since its inception, along with many other countries.
But we are also told that God causes the rain to fall on the just and unjust alike. Therefore I think that we need to be careful before we say there is a cause and effect thing going on here rather than a just and unjust thing going on here.
I also don't think that the verse means that we are not to be critical of Israeli policies. It is like being a friend - sometimes a good friend is the one who has the nerve to tell you what you don't want to hear but need to hear. Israel as an earthly land is as subject to corruption and injustice as any of us. You can be a friend and be critical of Israeli policies and still absolutely want Israel to exist and believe that Israel is a holy people, set apart by God, the gravitational centre of the world, the thing to which all other things turn, whether they know it or not.
But the US will not save Israel from its neighbours that do not wish them well. The Lord Himself shall do that. He will do that so that no one can rationalize away just Whom it was who is Israel's help and shield. He will not, I think, save them by proxy, through another nation, US or otherwise.
Judaism holds that there are 7 Noahic Laws which God gave the nations at the time of Noah and his sons, and those 7 laws are what all nations are required by God to obey. They are 1) not to worship idols; (2) not to blaspheme the name of God; (3) to establish courts of justice; (4) not to kill; (5) not to commit adultery; and (6) not to rob (7) not to eat flesh that had been cut from a living animal (Taken from the Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/)
In the great debate between Peter and Paul, we are told that the apostles also agreed that for Gentile Christians, while there was no need for circumcision or keeping kosher, Gentile Christians were obliged to follow some rules, those being (Acts 15:19) Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
See now, this is very interesting to me what you had to say about the pursuit of freedom and Americans hiding in bunkers and relating that to helping people during the Rapture. I don't believe in any of that. I don't think that is theologically defensible. The last days won't be a souped up version of WW2 in which a hero or heroine smuggles food to hiding Jews, or in this case, new Christians.
Revelations 6:15: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
I don't believe that anyone will escape those days - not the rich man, nor the free man (your pursuit-of-liberty man). I think that you are also basing this idea on thinking that a lot of people who are left behind, will come to their senses, so to speak, and therefore hide. I don't think that in those last days, any country is excluded, and I think you underestimate just how vile and perverse man can be.
I don't think there will be any helping of their fellow man. Evil doesn't always come in obvious forms. I think that the evil that will come is already among us and survives by disguising itself as goodness. I don't think there will be compounds full of gun-wielding Americans outwitting the anti-Christ and helping Christians. We are told that those who don't follow the anti-Christ will be killed and are given as an example the two witnesses,which traditional theology holds to be Elijah and Enoch. When they are killed, people celebrate - they send each other gifts in a perverted Christmas-like celebration.
Maybe I misunderstood what you are saying about that? I just reread that part of your post and I'm not sure anymore that I understood you correctly.
Ah, well, it's late and I'm not thinking very clearly.
Layla
Showing posts with label American Christianity. Show all posts
Showing posts with label American Christianity. Show all posts
Sunday, December 9, 2007
Saturday, December 8, 2007
Repentance?
I think we're both getting to the same place on the Theses, which is, "why?" If America is not a Christian nation (and we agree that is not, never has been) - how are we to repent corporately? Especially how are we to repent for attitudes rather than actions - attitudes which we A) don't all share and B) the people who do share them probably won't repent of anyway? I can see repenting as a nation for actions - as you said, I think all nations are responsible under a general "moral law" and I think that we are responsible to the degree of light we have gotten - but thought patterns? And with the separation of church and state, how do we decide which actions to repent? (I'd say from my Bible reading that God gets pretty ticked off with human/infant sacrifice, and if you want to talk about the idol of personal freedom... well, we have constant sacrifice on that altar, don't we?)
As an aside on God's judgement, I found on one of the fringe websites I read a very interesting list of the national disasters as directly correlated to times we were pressuring Israel to give up land. There is plenty of Biblical precedent for non-Israel national blessings as directly related to how that country TREATS Israel, so there's something to that.
For me, the point to both the pursuit of liberty and the 95 Theses are the same. We are preparing for the future. The stubborn Americans who fill up bunkers with food and water and emergency gear, who own guns and know how to hunt - those are the Americans who have some chance of surviving enough of the Tribulation to be saved. Not to mention the ones who might rebel enough against the Antichrist to give out food and water to those without the Mark. Those same stubborn Americans are going to have to give up on their patriotic idolatry - because they will become enemies of the State.
Christianity as a religion thrives on suffering. We are a brotherhood of martyrs... and Christians become diamonds under pressure and stress, dissipate in sunshine and plenty. I tend to think that Christians in other nations are MUCH closer to Jesus than I will ever be. I'm distracted by daily life, all they have is Him. I know the times when He has pressured me, I've grown spiritually.
Another aside, related... I don't think we'll all be doing the same thing in Heaven or be equal. I think we'll all be HAPPY, but I don't think we'll be equal. And I don't want to be! There is no way that I should have the eternal rewards of someone who had to watch their children die for Christ. Let them govern solar systems, and give me my oak tree to sit under and watch the world go by, give me my travel and a companion or three. When there is perfect justice, equality is not required. We will all be equally saved though. :) Ah well, trusting Him for everything, right?
Here's where I get repentance, "Thus, it is with great sadness that the endorsers of this document humbly plead with our churches to join us in repentance, turning from the United States' twisted notions of liberty, democracy and justice, from the historical misconceptions of its "Christian heritage" and from the ubiquitous greed that drives our nation. Jesus is calling his people in the United States today to grieve the sins of our nation, to return to our first love, and to once again recognize him alone as our King and the provider of our security. " I suppose this doesn't really talk about the nation as a whole, but churches individually - but... where does it say in the Bible that churches speak for nations? I don't know that my church's repentance would do much for God's view of my city, much less my nation. And until you brought this up, I'd never heard of these Theses... not well publicized.
As for Theses 18, I was trying to say that all men are free to worship whom they please - it's only that they're likely to die for it in some places/times. Even in MOST places and in MOST times. After the Rapture I think will definitely be "one of those times" for Christians, if we don't get close to it beforehand. Liberty? No, none of that. We're losing more of it day by day.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said, although of course I'm not a pacifist. :)
As an aside on God's judgement, I found on one of the fringe websites I read a very interesting list of the national disasters as directly correlated to times we were pressuring Israel to give up land. There is plenty of Biblical precedent for non-Israel national blessings as directly related to how that country TREATS Israel, so there's something to that.
For me, the point to both the pursuit of liberty and the 95 Theses are the same. We are preparing for the future. The stubborn Americans who fill up bunkers with food and water and emergency gear, who own guns and know how to hunt - those are the Americans who have some chance of surviving enough of the Tribulation to be saved. Not to mention the ones who might rebel enough against the Antichrist to give out food and water to those without the Mark. Those same stubborn Americans are going to have to give up on their patriotic idolatry - because they will become enemies of the State.
Christianity as a religion thrives on suffering. We are a brotherhood of martyrs... and Christians become diamonds under pressure and stress, dissipate in sunshine and plenty. I tend to think that Christians in other nations are MUCH closer to Jesus than I will ever be. I'm distracted by daily life, all they have is Him. I know the times when He has pressured me, I've grown spiritually.
Another aside, related... I don't think we'll all be doing the same thing in Heaven or be equal. I think we'll all be HAPPY, but I don't think we'll be equal. And I don't want to be! There is no way that I should have the eternal rewards of someone who had to watch their children die for Christ. Let them govern solar systems, and give me my oak tree to sit under and watch the world go by, give me my travel and a companion or three. When there is perfect justice, equality is not required. We will all be equally saved though. :) Ah well, trusting Him for everything, right?
Here's where I get repentance, "Thus, it is with great sadness that the endorsers of this document humbly plead with our churches to join us in repentance, turning from the United States' twisted notions of liberty, democracy and justice, from the historical misconceptions of its "Christian heritage" and from the ubiquitous greed that drives our nation. Jesus is calling his people in the United States today to grieve the sins of our nation, to return to our first love, and to once again recognize him alone as our King and the provider of our security. " I suppose this doesn't really talk about the nation as a whole, but churches individually - but... where does it say in the Bible that churches speak for nations? I don't know that my church's repentance would do much for God's view of my city, much less my nation. And until you brought this up, I'd never heard of these Theses... not well publicized.
As for Theses 18, I was trying to say that all men are free to worship whom they please - it's only that they're likely to die for it in some places/times. Even in MOST places and in MOST times. After the Rapture I think will definitely be "one of those times" for Christians, if we don't get close to it beforehand. Liberty? No, none of that. We're losing more of it day by day.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said, although of course I'm not a pacifist. :)
Sunday, December 2, 2007
Responding in Piecemeal
I have yet to sit down with the entire 95 Theses, but I think I can begin to start working on response/definitions to your post without them.
Part of the objection to "American Christianity" I think is simply the objection to Americans as a whole. One hundred years ago, it likely would have been the objection to the British. America is an imperial power. And while we don't go in for colonies on paper, we have a lot of de facto colonies (military bases in other countries), and we most decidedly have the attitude that it's our job to keep everyone in line. No one likes the policeman, even if it's a good policeman. A policeman that they didn't agree to have, who has a different culture and values than they, and who occasionally acts from suspect motives? That policeman will be REALLY unliked!
Likewise, Americans abroad have the attitude of untouchability. We know without thinking about it that a phalanx of Marines will come after us if something happens to us (via the government, not private parties). Add to that that the Americans who go abroad are very unlikely to ever have known real poverty, ever have had to suck it up when something is unfair, and are stubborn about trying really unfamiliar things or learning the language - you get a very poor national representative. I've read over and over how people in other countries are SHOCKED to get to know a religious American, who isn't all about Hollywood values.
So - first we have the sterotypical "Ugly American". Added to that - while America is thought of as a Christian nation, we aren't. Most of the people would identify themselves as Christian here... yes. But by that a very large chunk of them merely mean they went to Sunday School as a kid, believe in God, and pray once in a while. Their religion to them means no more than that. Did you hear the study where most Americans identified as Christians and then couldn't name even one gospel? Yeah... I don't mean to dis my countrymen, but that's not "Christian" to me.
So. We have Christians in name only, we have the Ugly American. Let's address patriotism. I don't think there is a single thing wrong with patriotism. Obviously we should be more loyal to our God than to our country. And I think that most of the *serious* Christians you will meet, American or not, are. But because our nation is sold as a Christian nation, because we're raised on Little House in the Prairie and Leave it to Beaver, we tend to want to push back the clock of our national behavior rather than concentrating on our individual behavior. It's sad, the largest and most influential Christian organizations buy into that. So - effort is put into defending corporate religious displays instead of putting nativity scenes in our own yards. (I got a great forward on this, and will post it). We *think* our government was once Christian, and so we try to make it again Christian. Wasted effort - far better to live as Christians, with all that that implies. But again... how many of us are there, and how mixed does the message get? And what does it mean to "live as a Christian" in an external, easily seen fashion? Surely it's not the fish bumperstickers I see everywhere. :)
But ... real American Christians? They give huge sums to the poor. They give to missions. They get out there and DO things - the churches here are forever going to Mexico, money and shovels in hand to fix orphanages and set up churches. My cousin's church sent a group to Africa to do much the same thing. Yes - we have imperialistic attitudes, and no doubt our Lord will wash us clean of those (looking forward to it!). But we also have a sense of nobliesse oblige. We know our Lord has blessed us materially and we try to spread that blessing around.
Where are our weak spots? I'd say other than imperialism, a huge one is that we're forever weakened by trying to be part of the culture at large. Because we have been spoonfed the doctrine that we're a Christian nation, we fight the insidious elements of decay rather than turning from them. A pastor gave this metaphor a long time ago - it applies to our thought life, but it works for this. As a Christian, we're travelling down a long straight road. That road goes straight through a big town. Hanging from every window in the town is someone trying to get us to deviate from our path. The mistake many Christians make is not turning - it's turning our heads to ARGUE. If we stop to talk... we've stopped. If our attention is off of the road ahead and our Lord at the end of it... it's off Him. The enemy wins! The enemy doesn't have to get us to go off track to stop us, he just has to distract us. So - do we worry about the movies Hollywood makes, or do we just get picky and only go to the ones that match our ideals? Do we yell about sex-ed, or do we teach our children at home or take them out of class on that day?
Should we fight and fuss and go on about liberty? Yes. There are good things to be gained there, even if those "good things" are mostly getting out to the community what's happening. But some of us are still infected with the leftover attitudes of the turn of the century. This world is not perfectable. Democracy is not the perfect government. We will get a perfect government when our Lord returns to reign. Absolute monarchy, absolute control. Until then, I agree... we need to let Him reign in our hearts.
Enough for now, I'm going to post the forward I got and come back to this later/tomorrow. Thank you for the birthday wishes. :)
Part of the objection to "American Christianity" I think is simply the objection to Americans as a whole. One hundred years ago, it likely would have been the objection to the British. America is an imperial power. And while we don't go in for colonies on paper, we have a lot of de facto colonies (military bases in other countries), and we most decidedly have the attitude that it's our job to keep everyone in line. No one likes the policeman, even if it's a good policeman. A policeman that they didn't agree to have, who has a different culture and values than they, and who occasionally acts from suspect motives? That policeman will be REALLY unliked!
Likewise, Americans abroad have the attitude of untouchability. We know without thinking about it that a phalanx of Marines will come after us if something happens to us (via the government, not private parties). Add to that that the Americans who go abroad are very unlikely to ever have known real poverty, ever have had to suck it up when something is unfair, and are stubborn about trying really unfamiliar things or learning the language - you get a very poor national representative. I've read over and over how people in other countries are SHOCKED to get to know a religious American, who isn't all about Hollywood values.
So - first we have the sterotypical "Ugly American". Added to that - while America is thought of as a Christian nation, we aren't. Most of the people would identify themselves as Christian here... yes. But by that a very large chunk of them merely mean they went to Sunday School as a kid, believe in God, and pray once in a while. Their religion to them means no more than that. Did you hear the study where most Americans identified as Christians and then couldn't name even one gospel? Yeah... I don't mean to dis my countrymen, but that's not "Christian" to me.
So. We have Christians in name only, we have the Ugly American. Let's address patriotism. I don't think there is a single thing wrong with patriotism. Obviously we should be more loyal to our God than to our country. And I think that most of the *serious* Christians you will meet, American or not, are. But because our nation is sold as a Christian nation, because we're raised on Little House in the Prairie and Leave it to Beaver, we tend to want to push back the clock of our national behavior rather than concentrating on our individual behavior. It's sad, the largest and most influential Christian organizations buy into that. So - effort is put into defending corporate religious displays instead of putting nativity scenes in our own yards. (I got a great forward on this, and will post it). We *think* our government was once Christian, and so we try to make it again Christian. Wasted effort - far better to live as Christians, with all that that implies. But again... how many of us are there, and how mixed does the message get? And what does it mean to "live as a Christian" in an external, easily seen fashion? Surely it's not the fish bumperstickers I see everywhere. :)
But ... real American Christians? They give huge sums to the poor. They give to missions. They get out there and DO things - the churches here are forever going to Mexico, money and shovels in hand to fix orphanages and set up churches. My cousin's church sent a group to Africa to do much the same thing. Yes - we have imperialistic attitudes, and no doubt our Lord will wash us clean of those (looking forward to it!). But we also have a sense of nobliesse oblige. We know our Lord has blessed us materially and we try to spread that blessing around.
Where are our weak spots? I'd say other than imperialism, a huge one is that we're forever weakened by trying to be part of the culture at large. Because we have been spoonfed the doctrine that we're a Christian nation, we fight the insidious elements of decay rather than turning from them. A pastor gave this metaphor a long time ago - it applies to our thought life, but it works for this. As a Christian, we're travelling down a long straight road. That road goes straight through a big town. Hanging from every window in the town is someone trying to get us to deviate from our path. The mistake many Christians make is not turning - it's turning our heads to ARGUE. If we stop to talk... we've stopped. If our attention is off of the road ahead and our Lord at the end of it... it's off Him. The enemy wins! The enemy doesn't have to get us to go off track to stop us, he just has to distract us. So - do we worry about the movies Hollywood makes, or do we just get picky and only go to the ones that match our ideals? Do we yell about sex-ed, or do we teach our children at home or take them out of class on that day?
Should we fight and fuss and go on about liberty? Yes. There are good things to be gained there, even if those "good things" are mostly getting out to the community what's happening. But some of us are still infected with the leftover attitudes of the turn of the century. This world is not perfectable. Democracy is not the perfect government. We will get a perfect government when our Lord returns to reign. Absolute monarchy, absolute control. Until then, I agree... we need to let Him reign in our hearts.
Enough for now, I'm going to post the forward I got and come back to this later/tomorrow. Thank you for the birthday wishes. :)
Sunday, November 11, 2007
Judging requires information
Information that I don't have.
While I agree that prosperity gospel comes periliously close to heresy... what of the church where a pot of propserity honey hides a core of truth in each message? "Seeker sensitive" sermons are more and more the rage these days... people are saved by the most unlikely methods.
At any rate, when I said I wouldn't judge those I don't know - it's because to do a proper job I'd need to listen to at least half a dozen sermons by the person in question, do a brief biographic search, and look into their fruit. It's not my call to do that... and I won't casually besmirch the name of someone who might be my brother in Christ. Is it the call of others? Yes. Just not mine. :) If you want to start doing the due diligence on folks, go for it, I"ll be interested to hear your results. For me, I'll stick to doing that sort of research on the people I'm relying on for my spiritual food.
To be very frank, I think the American church is in terrible disorder. We are weak and through and through with various disease. But there is still a remnant of faithful, even in the most lukewarm churches - so I am leary of attacking them. This is not, to my mind, the time for that. It's the time for getting our own spiritual houses in order and praying for our brethren to do the same. I don't know... I just can't bring myself to speak against the brethren. Even the ones that make me want to bite something! I don't think it's being a "nice lady" (though a compliment that I covet), I think it's being constrained of the Spirit. /shrug.
Watching and waiting and hoping for change....................
Hearth
While I agree that prosperity gospel comes periliously close to heresy... what of the church where a pot of propserity honey hides a core of truth in each message? "Seeker sensitive" sermons are more and more the rage these days... people are saved by the most unlikely methods.
At any rate, when I said I wouldn't judge those I don't know - it's because to do a proper job I'd need to listen to at least half a dozen sermons by the person in question, do a brief biographic search, and look into their fruit. It's not my call to do that... and I won't casually besmirch the name of someone who might be my brother in Christ. Is it the call of others? Yes. Just not mine. :) If you want to start doing the due diligence on folks, go for it, I"ll be interested to hear your results. For me, I'll stick to doing that sort of research on the people I'm relying on for my spiritual food.
To be very frank, I think the American church is in terrible disorder. We are weak and through and through with various disease. But there is still a remnant of faithful, even in the most lukewarm churches - so I am leary of attacking them. This is not, to my mind, the time for that. It's the time for getting our own spiritual houses in order and praying for our brethren to do the same. I don't know... I just can't bring myself to speak against the brethren. Even the ones that make me want to bite something! I don't think it's being a "nice lady" (though a compliment that I covet), I think it's being constrained of the Spirit. /shrug.
Watching and waiting and hoping for change....................
Hearth
Judging a Book by its Cover
You are such a nice lady, Hearth. Yes, I do have complexes from witnessing religious discussions turn into flames. Thank you for understanding or at least trying to understand what I am saying.
First of all, with regards to judging. I partly agree with you and yet partly not, because humans make judgements all the time. Only a fool doesn't make a judgement call, as when Jesus referred to the builder who built his house on sand and the wind and the sea washed it away. And again when he asked what builder does not, prior to building, first sit down and see whether he can afford the thing?
There is a a judgement implicit in Jesus saying that no one comes to the Father but by Him. I don't think that you yourself would judge a non-Christian religion to be anything but a false religion.
One meaning doesn't apply to every situation. God gave us brains to use, not for decorating the insides of our heads. It may be appropriate to do one thing in one situation but not in another, as when David and his men ate the holy bread from the Temple, the priests' portion. The punishment for that was death. Context, very often in the Bible, doesn't just seem to be everything, it seems to be the only thing unless one is such a literalist or fundamentalist that they insist on only one meaning for every statement. Which would mean shooting themselves in the proverbial foot, since to assign only one meaning to each word or by sticking to the letter of certain verses, means that God is contradicting Himself all over the place, and I wouldn't think that a fundamentalist believes God contradicts Himself at all.
Paul speaks about believers judging believers in Corinthians 1:6: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
In Luke 12:56, Jesus, in a speech that covers a lot of other things as well, says, Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? And in John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
We can have a pretty good idea of what God would call righteous judgement by the way Jesus acted and the things that He preached. We know he told stories of the Samaritans, a people not highly regarded in terms of their religious leanings. We know he ate with prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners. So much for our modern saying of 'birds of a feather, flock together' or judging a person by the company they keep.
We know that Jesus said the whole sum of the Law was to love God and to love our neighbour as ourselves. And we know that he judged the Pharisees and Sadducees quite harshly. And we know He told us to beware of false prophets and we are given examples in Paul's writings of false doctrines against which he did not hesitate to judge - even though he did not know personally some of the people that he judged.
We know that the Holy Spirit in Revelations, takes issue with the Ephesians, because they have 'left their first love' and with the Christians of Pergamos because, (Ch 2:14-15) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
To me, not judging a person means not saying that they are going to Hell because they baptise differently, or have religious rules for food and drink. Those things are all external. Then there are things that are heresies - and I won't hesitate to call the prosperity gospel a heresy - and that I think we do have an obligation to judge.
A lot of the judging that humans do to each other and which the Bible speaks against seems to have more to do with the tendency of us to judge by appearances. In the cases of pastors who preach a prosperity gospel, this isn't an appearance type of judgement. One is judging them by their own words, their own stated beliefs. It is judging those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
In 1 Corinthians 2, we are told: he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
The spirit of God within us is supposed to tell us, or let us know, what is true and what is not true. What seems like something that Jesus would do and what doesn't. We are supposed to have the mind of Christ. When a Christian has the mind of Christ, his inner conscience or inner Christ, when someone reprimands him - rightly - as when Paul went nose to nose with Peter over whether the new Gentile Christians were obligated to follow Jewish Law - acknowledges the correction and strives to correct itself.
Because of course, we all make mistakes in interpretation and it is hardly ever on purpose. Sometimes we may have heard a verse and an interpretation of a verse so often, it doesn't even register. And then someone else comes along with a different interpretation, and although we have never heard it said that way before, it seems to be more the 'mind of Christ' than how we had traditionally understood it. And then the 'spiritual' Christian, who judges all things, makes that inward adjustment or correction because they 'just know' it is more right than what they had believed, and yet that Christian, as the verse I quoted above says, is judged of no man - he is convicted or judged by the mind of Christ within him.
With regards to the last part of your post, and why Americans take exception to criticism of some American policies, at first I was going to post that, yes, I know, it isn't that simple. And then I had second thoughts, because Jesus makes things very simple indeed. When you eliminate politics from your religion, what you have left is treating people the way you would treat Jesus if he showed up on your street. And that is very simple.
I am not suggesting that politicians' jobs are simple. What I am saying that a Christian response to people, no matter who they are, is very simple. Childishly simple in fact. If people are hungry, we feed them. If they are naked, we clothe them. If they are in jail, we visit them. Today my sister was telling me about her day as a volunteer at her son's school. Her son is in grade 2. The subject the kids were meant to address was what people can do to get along. And one of the responses the teacher got (from a boy, of course!) was, "Don't dig holes in other people's yards."
That about sums it up. Very simple. Christians should behave like Christ did and not dig holes in other people's yards. Let the politicians do their jobs governing the secular world. Why does your average Joe Civilian Christian worry about whether a politician is behaving like a Christian, even if the politician is a self-professed Christian? Even if he is a Christian, his profession is politics, not ministering to anyone. But Christian ministers - now they claim to be the mouthpieces for God - when they sin, it should be an issue among the community of Christ.
Layla
First of all, with regards to judging. I partly agree with you and yet partly not, because humans make judgements all the time. Only a fool doesn't make a judgement call, as when Jesus referred to the builder who built his house on sand and the wind and the sea washed it away. And again when he asked what builder does not, prior to building, first sit down and see whether he can afford the thing?
There is a a judgement implicit in Jesus saying that no one comes to the Father but by Him. I don't think that you yourself would judge a non-Christian religion to be anything but a false religion.
One meaning doesn't apply to every situation. God gave us brains to use, not for decorating the insides of our heads. It may be appropriate to do one thing in one situation but not in another, as when David and his men ate the holy bread from the Temple, the priests' portion. The punishment for that was death. Context, very often in the Bible, doesn't just seem to be everything, it seems to be the only thing unless one is such a literalist or fundamentalist that they insist on only one meaning for every statement. Which would mean shooting themselves in the proverbial foot, since to assign only one meaning to each word or by sticking to the letter of certain verses, means that God is contradicting Himself all over the place, and I wouldn't think that a fundamentalist believes God contradicts Himself at all.
Paul speaks about believers judging believers in Corinthians 1:6: Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
In Luke 12:56, Jesus, in a speech that covers a lot of other things as well, says, Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right? And in John 7:24: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
We can have a pretty good idea of what God would call righteous judgement by the way Jesus acted and the things that He preached. We know he told stories of the Samaritans, a people not highly regarded in terms of their religious leanings. We know he ate with prostitutes, tax collectors and sinners. So much for our modern saying of 'birds of a feather, flock together' or judging a person by the company they keep.
We know that Jesus said the whole sum of the Law was to love God and to love our neighbour as ourselves. And we know that he judged the Pharisees and Sadducees quite harshly. And we know He told us to beware of false prophets and we are given examples in Paul's writings of false doctrines against which he did not hesitate to judge - even though he did not know personally some of the people that he judged.
We know that the Holy Spirit in Revelations, takes issue with the Ephesians, because they have 'left their first love' and with the Christians of Pergamos because, (Ch 2:14-15) But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
To me, not judging a person means not saying that they are going to Hell because they baptise differently, or have religious rules for food and drink. Those things are all external. Then there are things that are heresies - and I won't hesitate to call the prosperity gospel a heresy - and that I think we do have an obligation to judge.
A lot of the judging that humans do to each other and which the Bible speaks against seems to have more to do with the tendency of us to judge by appearances. In the cases of pastors who preach a prosperity gospel, this isn't an appearance type of judgement. One is judging them by their own words, their own stated beliefs. It is judging those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
In 1 Corinthians 2, we are told: he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.
The spirit of God within us is supposed to tell us, or let us know, what is true and what is not true. What seems like something that Jesus would do and what doesn't. We are supposed to have the mind of Christ. When a Christian has the mind of Christ, his inner conscience or inner Christ, when someone reprimands him - rightly - as when Paul went nose to nose with Peter over whether the new Gentile Christians were obligated to follow Jewish Law - acknowledges the correction and strives to correct itself.
Because of course, we all make mistakes in interpretation and it is hardly ever on purpose. Sometimes we may have heard a verse and an interpretation of a verse so often, it doesn't even register. And then someone else comes along with a different interpretation, and although we have never heard it said that way before, it seems to be more the 'mind of Christ' than how we had traditionally understood it. And then the 'spiritual' Christian, who judges all things, makes that inward adjustment or correction because they 'just know' it is more right than what they had believed, and yet that Christian, as the verse I quoted above says, is judged of no man - he is convicted or judged by the mind of Christ within him.
With regards to the last part of your post, and why Americans take exception to criticism of some American policies, at first I was going to post that, yes, I know, it isn't that simple. And then I had second thoughts, because Jesus makes things very simple indeed. When you eliminate politics from your religion, what you have left is treating people the way you would treat Jesus if he showed up on your street. And that is very simple.
I am not suggesting that politicians' jobs are simple. What I am saying that a Christian response to people, no matter who they are, is very simple. Childishly simple in fact. If people are hungry, we feed them. If they are naked, we clothe them. If they are in jail, we visit them. Today my sister was telling me about her day as a volunteer at her son's school. Her son is in grade 2. The subject the kids were meant to address was what people can do to get along. And one of the responses the teacher got (from a boy, of course!) was, "Don't dig holes in other people's yards."
That about sums it up. Very simple. Christians should behave like Christ did and not dig holes in other people's yards. Let the politicians do their jobs governing the secular world. Why does your average Joe Civilian Christian worry about whether a politician is behaving like a Christian, even if the politician is a self-professed Christian? Even if he is a Christian, his profession is politics, not ministering to anyone. But Christian ministers - now they claim to be the mouthpieces for God - when they sin, it should be an issue among the community of Christ.
Layla
Saturday, November 10, 2007
Starting from Agreement
I am horrified with how Christians behave too. We can certainly start from an agreement there. And yet, I don't feel like I should sit in judgement on Christians that I don't know other than by reputation. A brother or sister in Christ that I know? Someone who I have some direct responsibility to? Yes - there I must judge, there I have responsibility to confront, to pray over, etc. (And lest our readers think that this is one way... feel free, Layla, to do the same to me anytime you see it needful).
Quick note: Please feel free to say what you need to say. We're both wearing scars from the old debate board, where the point was to win the debate not to have a good discussion. I am interested in what you have to say - including about American Christianity. And if I wince... well, perhaps it's justified! You'll not scare me off.
Our "Christian Leaders" aka Robertson and his ilk. They'd fall under "brothers and sisters that I don't know personally". I judge them insofar as it includes not listening to them and paying them as little attention as possible. I would say that American Christianity has been poorly led. We've become very much like sheep rather than thinking for ourselves. One might say this about American popular culture in general, which I can bemoan at any length you would like.
My particular variant of Christianity, and how I was raised, was to question everything the Pastor said... we were SUPPOSED to listen to the sermon with Bibles open, making sure he was working straight from the Word of God. I went to a church youth group from 1st - 8th grade (and my son goes now) that has the specific purpose of helping the youth memorize scripture. So what do you think would be my reaction, raised that way, to going somewhere else and listening to something that turned the Scriptures on end? You'd never see me at that church again!
The other thing that is important when selecting a pastor is seeing if the Spirit leads him. I know that's a popular evangelical catch-phrase, but let me see if I can clear it up, at least in this instance. When I'm in a church (or listening at my desk) to a sermon given by someone filled with the Spirit, that sermon will touch me. It will touch my heart, somehow, some way. Even if he is preaching about Levitical purity law, I'll feel the Spirit whispering to me. All Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, and when that's what you're listening to, you can tell. When you need to say something to a brother or sister and didn't even know you needed to say it, and the words just flow... that's the Spirit (and we're promised He will do that).
American Christianity: American Christianity as seen from the outside is largely a growth of American culture as a whole. And Americans (speaking very very generally) have been taught to accept what their leaders tell them (which is totally anti-American) without question, so long as those leaders have the "right" credentials. Where is our Puritan spirit? Where is our determination to be strong individually that we can be strong as a country? Oh wait... that's the first bit of my "what's happened to America" rant... nm. :)
Mega-churches: Lots of megachurches operate in highly populated areas. My own church has 2,000 members or so - and it's one of at least five or six in my town of similar size. Then again, there are 200,000 people in my town, and half a million within a 20 minute radius. So. Some megachurches are big because of the area they are in, and some are big because megachurches focus on outreach, and it's very easy to go to a megachurch. (I've been to a few real ones). It feels good to belong to a body of believers, it feels good to say, "Oh yeah, I go to MegaChurch 2 - you do too? Awesome!" Sometimes you get a really good pastor and your church will grow by leaps and bounds. My childhood church went from 300 members to 2000 members in the space of 5 years because of a really good pastor. (And then that pastor was attacked by Pride and the church went back down as soon as he left - sad, very sad). Sometimes it's just "easy grace" and prosperity gospel. Sometimes it's the Spirit at work. I'm loving my current church and the new pastor.... he's really getting back to basics spiritually and calling us all to account. So - you won't hear me criticizing other big churches. Remember, even in that church full of sugar and fluff - there are real believers working hard somewhere.
American Christianity and social policies: A sticking point. We are called to love the sinner and hate the sin. What to do? I think that's why we have many types of members in the body of Christ. I wish we could work together, hand in hand. Take our illegal immigration problem. (And it IS a problem). If we were REALLY a Christian country, first our laws would make some kind of sense, then we'd have them enforced where they'd do some good (corporate level), and then the folks in the desert handing out bottles of water would be friends with the people guarding the border who would be friends with the people checking documentation, who would be friends with the people doing outreach... etc. Instead everyone says, "my way or the highway" and hates each other. And the laws make NO SENSE. To the point that five normal people can sit down and think up a way to deal with it that's sensible and reasonably fair in less than an hour, but our gov't won't DO that. And we have people dying to get here and endless problems with folks once they are here, from exploitation to crime to... name it. Sigh.
I think that's why American Christians as a whole start wincing when folks outside bring up stuff. It SOUNDS simple (and having read papers from outside the US, it's generally portayed as the meanie Americans), but it's not. And the spirit of evil, of hatred and division, is just all through everything. Why do you think I hate politics so? It's impossible now to simply say, "I think we should do xyz and this is why" and have other people assume you're saying that in good faith. Everything is grandstanding, everything is about profit or fame or somesuch. It's AWFUL. Why do you think I want to get away from it all? Like when my dog got turned into hamburger by the pitbulls last year... I was trying to get the city council to define "dangerous animal" to include severe dog-on-dog attacks, and people would come up to me and tell me that obviously pit bulls should be outlawed. What? No... I just wanted to be able to make my neighbor with the dangerous animals TREAT THEM like dangerous animals, even after she moved away from me. I wasn't mad at her! I wasn't even mad at her dog (he was being a very good pitbull). I didn't want revenge... I wanted to make sure that dog never lived next to a child or someone else's beloved family pet, because he'd dig under another fence and do it again. But people don't get that. If you aren't foaming at the mouth, they just won't listen. Do you want tears? That makes me cry.
So, we wince from truth - and we wince from the lies that get wrapped around it. American Christians - well, you'll not find a bunch of folks less unwilling to lend a hand, to donate a dollar, to help. At the same time, they'll support some of the meanest snakes on the planet. God knows where my brothers and sisters hearts are, where their backs are, where they work and where they slough off. And I'm glad that He's the one judging - because no one else is capable of beginning the job, much less finishing it.
I'm sure I've missed stuff, but have been typing away for about an hour now... bring back up whatever you'd like me to have another go at. :)
Quick note: Please feel free to say what you need to say. We're both wearing scars from the old debate board, where the point was to win the debate not to have a good discussion. I am interested in what you have to say - including about American Christianity. And if I wince... well, perhaps it's justified! You'll not scare me off.
Our "Christian Leaders" aka Robertson and his ilk. They'd fall under "brothers and sisters that I don't know personally". I judge them insofar as it includes not listening to them and paying them as little attention as possible. I would say that American Christianity has been poorly led. We've become very much like sheep rather than thinking for ourselves. One might say this about American popular culture in general, which I can bemoan at any length you would like.
My particular variant of Christianity, and how I was raised, was to question everything the Pastor said... we were SUPPOSED to listen to the sermon with Bibles open, making sure he was working straight from the Word of God. I went to a church youth group from 1st - 8th grade (and my son goes now) that has the specific purpose of helping the youth memorize scripture. So what do you think would be my reaction, raised that way, to going somewhere else and listening to something that turned the Scriptures on end? You'd never see me at that church again!
The other thing that is important when selecting a pastor is seeing if the Spirit leads him. I know that's a popular evangelical catch-phrase, but let me see if I can clear it up, at least in this instance. When I'm in a church (or listening at my desk) to a sermon given by someone filled with the Spirit, that sermon will touch me. It will touch my heart, somehow, some way. Even if he is preaching about Levitical purity law, I'll feel the Spirit whispering to me. All Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit, and when that's what you're listening to, you can tell. When you need to say something to a brother or sister and didn't even know you needed to say it, and the words just flow... that's the Spirit (and we're promised He will do that).
American Christianity: American Christianity as seen from the outside is largely a growth of American culture as a whole. And Americans (speaking very very generally) have been taught to accept what their leaders tell them (which is totally anti-American) without question, so long as those leaders have the "right" credentials. Where is our Puritan spirit? Where is our determination to be strong individually that we can be strong as a country? Oh wait... that's the first bit of my "what's happened to America" rant... nm. :)
Mega-churches: Lots of megachurches operate in highly populated areas. My own church has 2,000 members or so - and it's one of at least five or six in my town of similar size. Then again, there are 200,000 people in my town, and half a million within a 20 minute radius. So. Some megachurches are big because of the area they are in, and some are big because megachurches focus on outreach, and it's very easy to go to a megachurch. (I've been to a few real ones). It feels good to belong to a body of believers, it feels good to say, "Oh yeah, I go to MegaChurch 2 - you do too? Awesome!" Sometimes you get a really good pastor and your church will grow by leaps and bounds. My childhood church went from 300 members to 2000 members in the space of 5 years because of a really good pastor. (And then that pastor was attacked by Pride and the church went back down as soon as he left - sad, very sad). Sometimes it's just "easy grace" and prosperity gospel. Sometimes it's the Spirit at work. I'm loving my current church and the new pastor.... he's really getting back to basics spiritually and calling us all to account. So - you won't hear me criticizing other big churches. Remember, even in that church full of sugar and fluff - there are real believers working hard somewhere.
American Christianity and social policies: A sticking point. We are called to love the sinner and hate the sin. What to do? I think that's why we have many types of members in the body of Christ. I wish we could work together, hand in hand. Take our illegal immigration problem. (And it IS a problem). If we were REALLY a Christian country, first our laws would make some kind of sense, then we'd have them enforced where they'd do some good (corporate level), and then the folks in the desert handing out bottles of water would be friends with the people guarding the border who would be friends with the people checking documentation, who would be friends with the people doing outreach... etc. Instead everyone says, "my way or the highway" and hates each other. And the laws make NO SENSE. To the point that five normal people can sit down and think up a way to deal with it that's sensible and reasonably fair in less than an hour, but our gov't won't DO that. And we have people dying to get here and endless problems with folks once they are here, from exploitation to crime to... name it. Sigh.
I think that's why American Christians as a whole start wincing when folks outside bring up stuff. It SOUNDS simple (and having read papers from outside the US, it's generally portayed as the meanie Americans), but it's not. And the spirit of evil, of hatred and division, is just all through everything. Why do you think I hate politics so? It's impossible now to simply say, "I think we should do xyz and this is why" and have other people assume you're saying that in good faith. Everything is grandstanding, everything is about profit or fame or somesuch. It's AWFUL. Why do you think I want to get away from it all? Like when my dog got turned into hamburger by the pitbulls last year... I was trying to get the city council to define "dangerous animal" to include severe dog-on-dog attacks, and people would come up to me and tell me that obviously pit bulls should be outlawed. What? No... I just wanted to be able to make my neighbor with the dangerous animals TREAT THEM like dangerous animals, even after she moved away from me. I wasn't mad at her! I wasn't even mad at her dog (he was being a very good pitbull). I didn't want revenge... I wanted to make sure that dog never lived next to a child or someone else's beloved family pet, because he'd dig under another fence and do it again. But people don't get that. If you aren't foaming at the mouth, they just won't listen. Do you want tears? That makes me cry.
So, we wince from truth - and we wince from the lies that get wrapped around it. American Christians - well, you'll not find a bunch of folks less unwilling to lend a hand, to donate a dollar, to help. At the same time, they'll support some of the meanest snakes on the planet. God knows where my brothers and sisters hearts are, where their backs are, where they work and where they slough off. And I'm glad that He's the one judging - because no one else is capable of beginning the job, much less finishing it.
I'm sure I've missed stuff, but have been typing away for about an hour now... bring back up whatever you'd like me to have another go at. :)
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