more on prophets and prophecies

When you say, "I've always understood it to mean that you shouldn't take away or add to the Bible as a whole, and the book of Revelation in particular. "In the last days your sons and daughters shall prophesy..." that's more what I think of when I think of current prophecies" then how is it that you don't think that extra-biblical prophecies aren't adding or taking away from Revelations?

To me it would seem that any prophecy particularly as it refers to the End of Days, is adding. To me it seems as though you are saying that as long as other prophecies aren't attached directly and printed in the Bible, then they aren't in violation of the warning not to take away or add to Revelations, which to me, seems in keeping with the letter but not the spirit of the warning.

In the first place, we must remember that evil doesn't always manifest itself as something ugly. The serpent tempted Eve not with lies, but with a version of the truth: "thou shalt not surely die." And they didn't drop dead on the spot when they ate the forbidden fruit.

It seems to me that there is often a grain of truth in all of the religions, and that that is what the wolves in sheep's clothing use. They draw you in with a partial truth.

The verse from Joel that you quote about how "your young men shall see visions" is fulfilled with the first coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as in Acts 2, when Peter says,

these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

I am in complete agreement with you that every last word of a prophecy must come true, but what prophets have there been in the Christian church, from the Seventh Day Adventists, to The Crystal Cathedral guy who claimed God was going to take him home if he didn't raise X amount of dollars before such and such a date, who have ever been right? None.

I think that some people genuinely believe they have a special prophecy from God, but more often than not, it is the result of wishful thinking. Of wanting to be special enough to warrant a prophecy. I think that they 'prophecy' out of vanity as Ezekiel wrote of the prophets of Israel:

And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.

If one doesn't draw the line at Revelations, and allows, the very weird thing by Washington to stand as a possibility, then why not allow the prophecies of the Mormons to stand, or the Koran?

I see the post-Revelation period as the period spoken about by Amos in Chapter 8:

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD: And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

To me it seems as though Americans are almost desperate to be included in prophecy so they have to invent scenarios, like a good guy-bad guy script, in which they will be invaded and have some sort of role to play in the last days. That's how the Washington prophecy reads to me: all the "Son of the Republic" stuff. Maybe Washington actually did see something but who is to say it was a good angel or an evil one? But maybe he felt he had to invent as legitimacy for the new republic, since he was rebelling against the King. Kingship was traditionally believed to be handed down by God and whoever rebelled against the King rebelled against God. Kings could only be removed by God as in the story of Saul and David. David could have killed Saul but said, 'I will not lift my hand against my master, because he is the LORD's anointed.'

And later, when Saul is killed, David asks his killer,

David asked him, "Why were you not afraid to lift your hand to destroy the LORD's anointed?" Then David called one of his men and said, "Go, strike him down!" So he struck him down, and he died. For David had said to him, "Your blood be on your own head. Your own mouth testified against you when you said, 'I killed the LORD's anointed.'

It may seem strange to you in this day and age, but Washington, as an example, would have been fully aware of the prohibition against killing or rebelling against any king. It may have bothered him to such an extent he either dreamed or invented a prophecy, the way people tend to do when they feel the need to rationalize their behaviour.

This whole idea of kingship being handed down from God is also evident in the stories of the Pharaohs - even Ramses, who held the Israelites captive. In the story God says basically that Pharaohs had become so full of himself that he thought he had somehow 'earned' his position and that is why God used Moses to kill two birds with one stone: to make Pharaoh realise that he was answerable to a higher power still, and to reveal God's majesty to the children of Israel, and also free them.

I know Americans are very proud of a democratically elected leader and the whole notion of kingship as being handed down from on high is probably all but forgotten, but even today, the Queen of England is anointed in the presence of God and the people. It was that very sacred act that made the Duke of Windsor's abdication 'for the woman he loved' so terrible. It wasn't about breaking a vow to people, or simply deciding that he didn't like the job or wasn't suited for it, but about breaking a sacred vow to God.

The prophecies in the Bible always have Israel at their centre. What role, if any, the US has to play, I don't know. The Bible isn't clear on that. I don't believe that the US has to be named straight out in order for it to play a role since the enemies of Israel are often identified by the direction in which they come vis-a-vis Israel.

I could see it if some interpret the US to be the evil nation that attacks Israel from the north, since Biblical prophecies of the end times always have the attack coming from the north, most especially from Babylon (Iraq), which the US is currently occupying., and Iran, which the US would dearly love to invade and probably will. None of which speaks for the US as the good guy in the end of the world scenario, but as the anti-christ.

But insofar as an invasion by the Chinese or anyone else, I just don't think the US on its home territory rates anywhere on God's scale since it doesn't rank a mention.

The US is too far away for China to want American territory. It's not like they can just march across the ocean and take over for Lebensraum as the Germans could march over Europe. That there could and probably will be a worldwide nuclear war, that affects the US and obviously Canada as well, sure, I can buy that. But an old-fashioned ground invasion just isn't plausible, nor is it even necessary in Biblical terms. And all in all, you don't have anything China wants, and most especially not democracy.

In Canada we worry about the US invading us - for our oil and our water, or just because we don't agree with you about some things. I can see that happening.

I don't believe that God gives his children an idea of what is about to happen. He gives us a broad idea in the form of the OT and NT, which boils down to that there is a day of reckoning coming for all of us, and that he sent us all in his infinite mercy, a redeemer, a Prince of Peace. I'm sure you've heard the saying that blood is thicker than water and you know how kids sometimes (used to) cut each other in order to become blood brothers and swear undying friendship? That's based on the same idea - that blood is thicker than water. When Jesus shed his blood on the cross, that is what he did for us - he claimed all who believe in Him as his true blood brothers, his kin.

But he never did give us a play by play account of all the nations in the world.

Layla