Yay! A post I don't have to research for days... baptism. :)
I was raised Baptist, and have been fully immersed, backbend and all. It was an *experience*, and a little like death, even for such a waterbaby as I am. (And as young as I was). They put the cloth over your face and bend you back in the water... you can't breathe... it's only a moment but it feels too long.
I believe in adult baptism - or conscious choice. I was examined by my pastor very carefully with no coaching from my mom before I was allowed to be baptized. You have to be saved, and really know what that means before they'll baptize you - not just mouthing the words, really know and believe.
Would I, however, ever tell anyone that they had to redo it? No! That just upsets folks to no avail. The *point* of being baptized is to have a public ceremony marking you a Christian. To "come out" as it were.
"Not just mouthing the words" brings me to once saved, always saved. Yes, I believe in that, wholeheartedly. But let me have a couple of caveats. 1) I think you can choose to give up your salvation and become a deliberate apostate. Not choosing sin over non-sin, as we all sin every day, but choosing to publically denounce our Lord and become an atheist, or convert to another religion as an adult. And yet... I tend to believe that those who do that never really believed in the first place, for does not He say that He will lose none from His hand? Caveat 2) You have to really believe in (put your full trust in, give your allegiance to) Jesus as Savior in order to go to Heaven. You have to have that relationship.
Sons in the pigpen vs. pigs in the pigpen: This is a Dr. McGee metaphor. Sons might get down in the pigpen of sin, but they don't want to stay there. Pigs like it in the pigpen, it suits them just fine. I've been in sin... it itches. It burns. It bothers you, nags at your conscience. The unsaved just aren't bothered by sin the same way. I have these conversations with my unsaved friends, we go along just fine and then hit a wall - a wall where I expect them to feel a bit guilty about something they're doing or not doing and ... and... they just don't. Nothing there. There's no guilt, no conviction. And that is the biggest wall to conversion that I've found - a total lack of guilt.
On the other hand, I have friends who I know have been exposed to the gospel, and might well have been/are saved but have been swimming in slop so long they don't know which end is up. And *they* get angry when sin is mentioned. It is burning them, even as they pretend it does not. Will they be in Heaven? I believe so, but... am not so sure that I'm not trying to show them how much nicer it is to shower up a bit. (A bit - for none of us is completely clean this side of Heaven).
The two great sins of the church are legalism and liberalism. Legalism leads to people believing in works and worrying about their eternal status every day. Liberalism leads people to forget that God is Holy and that He does have rules, and that there is only one way Home. I think that people think of the "church" as the externally visible body of church members. That is not the true church. The church is every person who truly believes on our Lord Jesus Christ, who truly has a personal relationship with Him and who relies upon Him for their salvation - whatever else they might do or not do. I've mentioned several times the church my friend D was at - ladies there who had never cracked their Bibles open, ladies old enough to be our mothers who'd been in that church their whole lives! Is that the "church" that is spoken about in the Word? No. It's not the church of the people that think they're holier than thou, it's not the church of people who think they should reduce everything to the lowest common denomiator because they have to "reach the public". The true church has members from every denomination, and no denomination has all their members in it.
Interesting link on eternal salvation and OSAS. :) Thank you for it. :) I disagree, but it was interesting reading. FWIW - I do believe that branches can be trimmed. Trimmed right out of this life and into the next one. Still SAVED, just cut off from all the work that you were expected to do - and that's the "sin unto death". You can be pruned too - have your blessings taken from you, your ministry taken from you, etc. That's very common as a method of displining a wayward child of God. And again, it's all too common for folks to mouth the words "I believe" but not really put any faith or belief in Jesus. I *know* how filthy I am. How unholy. I *know* I deserve Hell - and I know I will receive Heaven because of Jesus' death on the cross. Could I wilfully walk away from Him at this point? Oh... I could. It would hurt, though. So much... I don't think I could stand it. But when I was younger in my walk? Yes. And then I got pruned, and pruned to the bone. There are branches that will never grow back, places I am never going to be allowed - not because they're bad, but because they're bad for ME.
A long enough post for now... :) Brain slowly returning to the upright position, body going back into Martha mode. :) Hope that you are well!
Showing posts with label once-saved. Show all posts
Showing posts with label once-saved. Show all posts
Saturday, December 29, 2007
Friday, December 28, 2007
Holiness
This post too will probably end up being about bits and pieces here and there. I am also in a brain-dead mode.
I guess first of all I'll refer to your comments on my comments about holiness and your questioning how else to manage it. God is mentioned as "holy" far more than he is mentioned as a father or as a bridegroom or a husband. The word 'holiness' is the primary word used to describe God throughout the Bible. We are also instructed in various places, but with almost identical wording, as in Leviticus: For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Peter makes reference to that verse when he says in 1 Peter, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
This calls for our conversation to be holy, something that is sorely lacking among Christians. I actually think there it isn't that hard at all to see God as holy. I don't think that we can hang on to the notion of God as father or God as husband and think therefore he is not to be spoken of in a holy way. In the first place, I am not sure how many people actually care to think of God the Father as they would of their earthly fathers, who so often betray their children or otherwise let their children down. If we take God and turn him into an earthly father, I fear a lot of children with not very good fathers, would have a really hard time reconciling the two.
Secondly we see in how Jesus prayed in the Our Father - although he addressed God as Abba, father, as familiarly as a German speaker might say 'du' to a dear family member - the familiar form of 'you' - instead of 'Sie' - the formal form of 'you' in German, that there is nothing that is not holy in how Jesus is praying, right to the end when he says and thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever.
I think I may have touched on this before, that I don't believe at all in the whole once-saved, always-saved business. I think it is that very thing that has led to us treating the name of God with the casualness that we do. People think they won't have to account for their sins when we are told quite clearly that we will have to give account to God for every word we have spoken.
Where people think there is no accountability, there is also no respect. As I quoted in the previous post on holiness, the doctrine of Calvin that people can be once-saved, always saved is put to rest completely with,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It was never part of Mennonite theology that a person could not lose their salvation. Faith without works is dead. Mennonites did not go around talking about God and Jesus loves you and sticking a 'praise the Lord' into conversations when I was growing up. God's name was too holy for that. What was the point of sticking in a 'praise the Lord' when your very feet on the earth praised the Lord? And if people couldn't see whose servant you were by looking at you, there was something wrong with how you were living.
A lot of Mennonites are doing that now, out of ignorance of the Bible and the faith they were born into and they want to be 'in style' with the American version of Christianity, which for most people, means the version that is the loudest - evangelicals. It helps that it requires so little from you. You can do what you want, just as long as you stick in enough praise the Lords in your conversation.
Ignorance and following received faith can be a terrible, blinding thing.
A lot of people who were born into the once-saved, always saved idea also believe it because they have never thought about it, never read the Bible or thought about how, within the entire context of the Bible and not a few verses pulled out of context, that's not what Jesus preached and that's not what the apostles have to say. Context is everything. But too many people, period, are taught belief means not to question, that belief means not to think.
I think that is the biggest challenge for anyone - to really look at one's beliefs, no matter what they are, and try as hard as possible to approach all ideas with an open mind, confident that the Heavenly Father will guide you into what is true, if that is your strongest desire, and regardless of whether that leads one far afield of one's received beliefs. I stand completely in awe of people who have been born into something totally opposite of Christianity, and have of their own heart, come to the conclusion that Jesus is Lord.
Link.
Logically, it makes no sense at all in any case, since we are given an inner moral code, whether we are Christian or not, and we all recognize as people, that there are people who are only sorry about things when they get caught, and people who have learned that most people will accept apologies given for wrongs done. But there are some people who use that as an excuse to sin again - the apology therefore doesn't mean anything.
This scenario is addressed in Matthew 18 by Jesus: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Well, I lost my train of thought somewhere here along the line. I was going somewhere else with this and this is where I ended up so I'll just end this post for now. Hope you feel better soon. I can hardly wait, personally, until the New Year is over and life can get back to normal, or what passes for normal around here.
Layla
I guess first of all I'll refer to your comments on my comments about holiness and your questioning how else to manage it. God is mentioned as "holy" far more than he is mentioned as a father or as a bridegroom or a husband. The word 'holiness' is the primary word used to describe God throughout the Bible. We are also instructed in various places, but with almost identical wording, as in Leviticus: For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Peter makes reference to that verse when he says in 1 Peter, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
This calls for our conversation to be holy, something that is sorely lacking among Christians. I actually think there it isn't that hard at all to see God as holy. I don't think that we can hang on to the notion of God as father or God as husband and think therefore he is not to be spoken of in a holy way. In the first place, I am not sure how many people actually care to think of God the Father as they would of their earthly fathers, who so often betray their children or otherwise let their children down. If we take God and turn him into an earthly father, I fear a lot of children with not very good fathers, would have a really hard time reconciling the two.
Secondly we see in how Jesus prayed in the Our Father - although he addressed God as Abba, father, as familiarly as a German speaker might say 'du' to a dear family member - the familiar form of 'you' - instead of 'Sie' - the formal form of 'you' in German, that there is nothing that is not holy in how Jesus is praying, right to the end when he says and thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever.
I think I may have touched on this before, that I don't believe at all in the whole once-saved, always-saved business. I think it is that very thing that has led to us treating the name of God with the casualness that we do. People think they won't have to account for their sins when we are told quite clearly that we will have to give account to God for every word we have spoken.
Where people think there is no accountability, there is also no respect. As I quoted in the previous post on holiness, the doctrine of Calvin that people can be once-saved, always saved is put to rest completely with,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It was never part of Mennonite theology that a person could not lose their salvation. Faith without works is dead. Mennonites did not go around talking about God and Jesus loves you and sticking a 'praise the Lord' into conversations when I was growing up. God's name was too holy for that. What was the point of sticking in a 'praise the Lord' when your very feet on the earth praised the Lord? And if people couldn't see whose servant you were by looking at you, there was something wrong with how you were living.
A lot of Mennonites are doing that now, out of ignorance of the Bible and the faith they were born into and they want to be 'in style' with the American version of Christianity, which for most people, means the version that is the loudest - evangelicals. It helps that it requires so little from you. You can do what you want, just as long as you stick in enough praise the Lords in your conversation.
Ignorance and following received faith can be a terrible, blinding thing.
A lot of people who were born into the once-saved, always saved idea also believe it because they have never thought about it, never read the Bible or thought about how, within the entire context of the Bible and not a few verses pulled out of context, that's not what Jesus preached and that's not what the apostles have to say. Context is everything. But too many people, period, are taught belief means not to question, that belief means not to think.
I think that is the biggest challenge for anyone - to really look at one's beliefs, no matter what they are, and try as hard as possible to approach all ideas with an open mind, confident that the Heavenly Father will guide you into what is true, if that is your strongest desire, and regardless of whether that leads one far afield of one's received beliefs. I stand completely in awe of people who have been born into something totally opposite of Christianity, and have of their own heart, come to the conclusion that Jesus is Lord.
Link.
Logically, it makes no sense at all in any case, since we are given an inner moral code, whether we are Christian or not, and we all recognize as people, that there are people who are only sorry about things when they get caught, and people who have learned that most people will accept apologies given for wrongs done. But there are some people who use that as an excuse to sin again - the apology therefore doesn't mean anything.
This scenario is addressed in Matthew 18 by Jesus: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Well, I lost my train of thought somewhere here along the line. I was going somewhere else with this and this is where I ended up so I'll just end this post for now. Hope you feel better soon. I can hardly wait, personally, until the New Year is over and life can get back to normal, or what passes for normal around here.
Layla
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