OSAS, baptism

Yay! A post I don't have to research for days... baptism. :)
I was raised Baptist, and have been fully immersed, backbend and all. It was an *experience*, and a little like death, even for such a waterbaby as I am. (And as young as I was). They put the cloth over your face and bend you back in the water... you can't breathe... it's only a moment but it feels too long.

I believe in adult baptism - or conscious choice. I was examined by my pastor very carefully with no coaching from my mom before I was allowed to be baptized. You have to be saved, and really know what that means before they'll baptize you - not just mouthing the words, really know and believe.

Would I, however, ever tell anyone that they had to redo it? No! That just upsets folks to no avail. The *point* of being baptized is to have a public ceremony marking you a Christian. To "come out" as it were.

"Not just mouthing the words" brings me to once saved, always saved. Yes, I believe in that, wholeheartedly. But let me have a couple of caveats. 1) I think you can choose to give up your salvation and become a deliberate apostate. Not choosing sin over non-sin, as we all sin every day, but choosing to publically denounce our Lord and become an atheist, or convert to another religion as an adult. And yet... I tend to believe that those who do that never really believed in the first place, for does not He say that He will lose none from His hand? Caveat 2) You have to really believe in (put your full trust in, give your allegiance to) Jesus as Savior in order to go to Heaven. You have to have that relationship.

Sons in the pigpen vs. pigs in the pigpen: This is a Dr. McGee metaphor. Sons might get down in the pigpen of sin, but they don't want to stay there. Pigs like it in the pigpen, it suits them just fine. I've been in sin... it itches. It burns. It bothers you, nags at your conscience. The unsaved just aren't bothered by sin the same way. I have these conversations with my unsaved friends, we go along just fine and then hit a wall - a wall where I expect them to feel a bit guilty about something they're doing or not doing and ... and... they just don't. Nothing there. There's no guilt, no conviction. And that is the biggest wall to conversion that I've found - a total lack of guilt.

On the other hand, I have friends who I know have been exposed to the gospel, and might well have been/are saved but have been swimming in slop so long they don't know which end is up. And *they* get angry when sin is mentioned. It is burning them, even as they pretend it does not. Will they be in Heaven? I believe so, but... am not so sure that I'm not trying to show them how much nicer it is to shower up a bit. (A bit - for none of us is completely clean this side of Heaven).

The two great sins of the church are legalism and liberalism. Legalism leads to people believing in works and worrying about their eternal status every day. Liberalism leads people to forget that God is Holy and that He does have rules, and that there is only one way Home. I think that people think of the "church" as the externally visible body of church members. That is not the true church. The church is every person who truly believes on our Lord Jesus Christ, who truly has a personal relationship with Him and who relies upon Him for their salvation - whatever else they might do or not do. I've mentioned several times the church my friend D was at - ladies there who had never cracked their Bibles open, ladies old enough to be our mothers who'd been in that church their whole lives! Is that the "church" that is spoken about in the Word? No. It's not the church of the people that think they're holier than thou, it's not the church of people who think they should reduce everything to the lowest common denomiator because they have to "reach the public". The true church has members from every denomination, and no denomination has all their members in it.

Interesting link on eternal salvation and OSAS. :) Thank you for it. :) I disagree, but it was interesting reading. FWIW - I do believe that branches can be trimmed. Trimmed right out of this life and into the next one. Still SAVED, just cut off from all the work that you were expected to do - and that's the "sin unto death". You can be pruned too - have your blessings taken from you, your ministry taken from you, etc. That's very common as a method of displining a wayward child of God. And again, it's all too common for folks to mouth the words "I believe" but not really put any faith or belief in Jesus. I *know* how filthy I am. How unholy. I *know* I deserve Hell - and I know I will receive Heaven because of Jesus' death on the cross. Could I wilfully walk away from Him at this point? Oh... I could. It would hurt, though. So much... I don't think I could stand it. But when I was younger in my walk? Yes. And then I got pruned, and pruned to the bone. There are branches that will never grow back, places I am never going to be allowed - not because they're bad, but because they're bad for ME.

A long enough post for now... :) Brain slowly returning to the upright position, body going back into Martha mode. :) Hope that you are well!

Baptism etc, scattered thoughts

I have always taken Matthew 7:21-22 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? to be about those who think they're Christians because their parents were Christian and because they go to a Christian church, but have no personal relationship with Christ. Those who rely on "religion" and leave out Jesus. I maintain that you can walk away from Christ and still be saved - but I know that it hurts. How to tell if someone is really a Christian or not? You have to look for fruit. If there isn't any... the best guess is "non-Christian", but only our Lord can judge hearts.
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Following Christ is hard. There's nothing anywhere in the Bible that says it will be easy. The prosperity preachers have been and always will be popular... but are they going to show up in heaven smelling smoky? People *want* to hear that if you do x, y, z you'll not only go to Heaven but have a great life down here on earth. You can always make money selling people dreams... but "God is not mocked. Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Jim Bakker did jail time, God didn't let him off with leading astray the faithful! We live in a fallen culture - and that culture is insidious. I really do see the value in living apart, as some Mennonites/Amish do. Being called to live in the land of shiny people and not incorporate those values is incredibly difficult. Why be surprised that not only do we have preachers preaching "shiny" but that they get lots of press and popularity?
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I like your thoughts on baptism as hope, but as a properly raised Baptist I've always thought of it as a symbol of commitment to the faith, much like the Mennonites do it. (There are differences, we are encouraged to be baptised soon after we are saved, it's a public declaration, and there aren't really age-limits. Myself, I was baptised at 6 after strenuous examination by my pastor making sure I knew what I was about with salvation and all).

Samson and dedication of children... I've been interested in how the Bible claims the first born for God - not as a human sacrifice, but as a "belonging to". I think we can dedicate things to Him, and children (to some extent) although that is indeed a "hope". I don't think that's like baptism though... except maybe for infant baptism. I'd NEVER dis someone for baptising their baby, even if I don't think it serves as anything but a hope... I have children of my own that are too young yet to choose, though the elder has begun to love Jesus. (For the audience if any, they're 7 and 3 - and yes, I did say I was saved at 5, but I remember the day I "got it" - that light hasn't clicked on for him yet).
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I had some thoughts related primarily to my personal experience that dovetailed the forgiveness expected of Mennonites (which, btw, I think shows some of the finest Christian example that there is) and the cheap grace that we discussed a day or so ago. I think we have to be willing to feel the pain of the slap on the face in order to have the turning of the other cheek mean much. (It still means something - it shows the will to follow). How do you balance that in your life? How do you feel the hurt, the anger, etc etc... and not *live* there?

Apologies for such a scattered post. I keep trying to get it to mesh, but it's not happening, and I wanted to get it out there for response.