Just another post on another aspect of Mennonite theology with which non-Mennonites may not be familiar. Mennonites traditionally do not sue and settle lawsuits filed against them, whether they are right or not. That's the traditional theology with which I was brought up. I think I have mentioned before that the Mennonite confession of faith is based on the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5, and that is where you will find the origins of much Mennonite theology.
In terms of lawsuits, the theology is biblically based on this: And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
This idea is essentially repeated in the instruction to turn the other cheek. For some reason, which I have never understood, many Christians seem to take the Bible literally in the sense that if Jesus says to turn the other cheek, then it is the cheek that he meant and not the nose. If someone hits you in the cheek, turn the other one, but if he hits you in the nose, hit him back and twice as hard so he won't do it again.
And if he says that if someone sues to take away your coat, you should let him have your cloak but if he sues to take away your house, then sue him back.
Do you see what I mean or am I being all confusing? It's like the idea behind what Jesus says is sailing waaaay over people's heads - Jesus is saying no matter what you are being sued for, you ought to give it, even if you are in the right.
In 1 Corinthians Paul takes issue with the Corinthians for this very thing: But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
So clearly there is no instruction not to sue someone on the basis of being right or on the basis of the other potential party in the lawsuit being a Christian. Back to the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew 5:
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
If we decide that Christ was not referring to what our behaviour ought to be in dealing with non-Christians, then how do we explain the above - that if we only care for our brethren, how are we any different than anyone else? Christ calls for us to be different. To be the salt and light of the world. Where there is a light, there is no need for anyone to announce it - it is self-evident. If Christian light is so easily confused with the darkness, it isn't the darkness that is the problem - it is the light.
So. That's another aspect of Mennonite theology that non-Mennonites may not know about. It was a very big deal when I was growing up and Mennonites who sued or who didn't settle a lawsuit were certainly looked at askance. Unfortunately, like a lot of things, that changed. Mennonites now are as prone to lawsuits as anyone else. I think that since Mennonites tend to be well above the poverty line, along with too much money came the desire to protect it and rationalize away the theology (and correct theology, in my opinion) that they were raised with. And I would venture to say that many young cultural Mennonites have no idea at all what the original tenets of the faith are anymore. Mennonites have become outwardly indistinguishable from everyone else.
Layla
Sunday, December 30, 2007
Saturday, December 29, 2007
PS
I wasn't stressed out about Mennonites being perfect. I'm sure I sound like I think that Dr. McGee is perfect or that the Baptists are perfect. Neither being the case.... no worries.
OSAS, baptism
Yay! A post I don't have to research for days... baptism. :)
I was raised Baptist, and have been fully immersed, backbend and all. It was an *experience*, and a little like death, even for such a waterbaby as I am. (And as young as I was). They put the cloth over your face and bend you back in the water... you can't breathe... it's only a moment but it feels too long.
I believe in adult baptism - or conscious choice. I was examined by my pastor very carefully with no coaching from my mom before I was allowed to be baptized. You have to be saved, and really know what that means before they'll baptize you - not just mouthing the words, really know and believe.
Would I, however, ever tell anyone that they had to redo it? No! That just upsets folks to no avail. The *point* of being baptized is to have a public ceremony marking you a Christian. To "come out" as it were.
"Not just mouthing the words" brings me to once saved, always saved. Yes, I believe in that, wholeheartedly. But let me have a couple of caveats. 1) I think you can choose to give up your salvation and become a deliberate apostate. Not choosing sin over non-sin, as we all sin every day, but choosing to publically denounce our Lord and become an atheist, or convert to another religion as an adult. And yet... I tend to believe that those who do that never really believed in the first place, for does not He say that He will lose none from His hand? Caveat 2) You have to really believe in (put your full trust in, give your allegiance to) Jesus as Savior in order to go to Heaven. You have to have that relationship.
Sons in the pigpen vs. pigs in the pigpen: This is a Dr. McGee metaphor. Sons might get down in the pigpen of sin, but they don't want to stay there. Pigs like it in the pigpen, it suits them just fine. I've been in sin... it itches. It burns. It bothers you, nags at your conscience. The unsaved just aren't bothered by sin the same way. I have these conversations with my unsaved friends, we go along just fine and then hit a wall - a wall where I expect them to feel a bit guilty about something they're doing or not doing and ... and... they just don't. Nothing there. There's no guilt, no conviction. And that is the biggest wall to conversion that I've found - a total lack of guilt.
On the other hand, I have friends who I know have been exposed to the gospel, and might well have been/are saved but have been swimming in slop so long they don't know which end is up. And *they* get angry when sin is mentioned. It is burning them, even as they pretend it does not. Will they be in Heaven? I believe so, but... am not so sure that I'm not trying to show them how much nicer it is to shower up a bit. (A bit - for none of us is completely clean this side of Heaven).
The two great sins of the church are legalism and liberalism. Legalism leads to people believing in works and worrying about their eternal status every day. Liberalism leads people to forget that God is Holy and that He does have rules, and that there is only one way Home. I think that people think of the "church" as the externally visible body of church members. That is not the true church. The church is every person who truly believes on our Lord Jesus Christ, who truly has a personal relationship with Him and who relies upon Him for their salvation - whatever else they might do or not do. I've mentioned several times the church my friend D was at - ladies there who had never cracked their Bibles open, ladies old enough to be our mothers who'd been in that church their whole lives! Is that the "church" that is spoken about in the Word? No. It's not the church of the people that think they're holier than thou, it's not the church of people who think they should reduce everything to the lowest common denomiator because they have to "reach the public". The true church has members from every denomination, and no denomination has all their members in it.
Interesting link on eternal salvation and OSAS. :) Thank you for it. :) I disagree, but it was interesting reading. FWIW - I do believe that branches can be trimmed. Trimmed right out of this life and into the next one. Still SAVED, just cut off from all the work that you were expected to do - and that's the "sin unto death". You can be pruned too - have your blessings taken from you, your ministry taken from you, etc. That's very common as a method of displining a wayward child of God. And again, it's all too common for folks to mouth the words "I believe" but not really put any faith or belief in Jesus. I *know* how filthy I am. How unholy. I *know* I deserve Hell - and I know I will receive Heaven because of Jesus' death on the cross. Could I wilfully walk away from Him at this point? Oh... I could. It would hurt, though. So much... I don't think I could stand it. But when I was younger in my walk? Yes. And then I got pruned, and pruned to the bone. There are branches that will never grow back, places I am never going to be allowed - not because they're bad, but because they're bad for ME.
A long enough post for now... :) Brain slowly returning to the upright position, body going back into Martha mode. :) Hope that you are well!
I was raised Baptist, and have been fully immersed, backbend and all. It was an *experience*, and a little like death, even for such a waterbaby as I am. (And as young as I was). They put the cloth over your face and bend you back in the water... you can't breathe... it's only a moment but it feels too long.
I believe in adult baptism - or conscious choice. I was examined by my pastor very carefully with no coaching from my mom before I was allowed to be baptized. You have to be saved, and really know what that means before they'll baptize you - not just mouthing the words, really know and believe.
Would I, however, ever tell anyone that they had to redo it? No! That just upsets folks to no avail. The *point* of being baptized is to have a public ceremony marking you a Christian. To "come out" as it were.
"Not just mouthing the words" brings me to once saved, always saved. Yes, I believe in that, wholeheartedly. But let me have a couple of caveats. 1) I think you can choose to give up your salvation and become a deliberate apostate. Not choosing sin over non-sin, as we all sin every day, but choosing to publically denounce our Lord and become an atheist, or convert to another religion as an adult. And yet... I tend to believe that those who do that never really believed in the first place, for does not He say that He will lose none from His hand? Caveat 2) You have to really believe in (put your full trust in, give your allegiance to) Jesus as Savior in order to go to Heaven. You have to have that relationship.
Sons in the pigpen vs. pigs in the pigpen: This is a Dr. McGee metaphor. Sons might get down in the pigpen of sin, but they don't want to stay there. Pigs like it in the pigpen, it suits them just fine. I've been in sin... it itches. It burns. It bothers you, nags at your conscience. The unsaved just aren't bothered by sin the same way. I have these conversations with my unsaved friends, we go along just fine and then hit a wall - a wall where I expect them to feel a bit guilty about something they're doing or not doing and ... and... they just don't. Nothing there. There's no guilt, no conviction. And that is the biggest wall to conversion that I've found - a total lack of guilt.
On the other hand, I have friends who I know have been exposed to the gospel, and might well have been/are saved but have been swimming in slop so long they don't know which end is up. And *they* get angry when sin is mentioned. It is burning them, even as they pretend it does not. Will they be in Heaven? I believe so, but... am not so sure that I'm not trying to show them how much nicer it is to shower up a bit. (A bit - for none of us is completely clean this side of Heaven).
The two great sins of the church are legalism and liberalism. Legalism leads to people believing in works and worrying about their eternal status every day. Liberalism leads people to forget that God is Holy and that He does have rules, and that there is only one way Home. I think that people think of the "church" as the externally visible body of church members. That is not the true church. The church is every person who truly believes on our Lord Jesus Christ, who truly has a personal relationship with Him and who relies upon Him for their salvation - whatever else they might do or not do. I've mentioned several times the church my friend D was at - ladies there who had never cracked their Bibles open, ladies old enough to be our mothers who'd been in that church their whole lives! Is that the "church" that is spoken about in the Word? No. It's not the church of the people that think they're holier than thou, it's not the church of people who think they should reduce everything to the lowest common denomiator because they have to "reach the public". The true church has members from every denomination, and no denomination has all their members in it.
Interesting link on eternal salvation and OSAS. :) Thank you for it. :) I disagree, but it was interesting reading. FWIW - I do believe that branches can be trimmed. Trimmed right out of this life and into the next one. Still SAVED, just cut off from all the work that you were expected to do - and that's the "sin unto death". You can be pruned too - have your blessings taken from you, your ministry taken from you, etc. That's very common as a method of displining a wayward child of God. And again, it's all too common for folks to mouth the words "I believe" but not really put any faith or belief in Jesus. I *know* how filthy I am. How unholy. I *know* I deserve Hell - and I know I will receive Heaven because of Jesus' death on the cross. Could I wilfully walk away from Him at this point? Oh... I could. It would hurt, though. So much... I don't think I could stand it. But when I was younger in my walk? Yes. And then I got pruned, and pruned to the bone. There are branches that will never grow back, places I am never going to be allowed - not because they're bad, but because they're bad for ME.
A long enough post for now... :) Brain slowly returning to the upright position, body going back into Martha mode. :) Hope that you are well!
Friday, December 28, 2007
Mennonite Sins
I've been feel badly for a while now because I am afraid my posts may sound like I think that Mennonites have it all right or something. For the record, I often refer to the Mennonite view on theology, not so much for your benefit, but just as general information for anyone who is out there since I think it is a branch of Christianity that is never thought about at all, unless it is thought about in terms of the Amish.
There are things which I think that the Mennonites, but not exclusively the Mennonites, got right - there are a lot more things than just non-resistance that Mennonites hold dear and which I think they got right. I think it is easier for me to focus on what they got right because when it comes down to writing about what I hate about Mennonites, it all gets mooshed up with personalities, and ethnic peculiarities and there are so many things that aggravate the heck out of me about the Mennonites that I know (keeping in mind there are as many differences in theology about a lot of things among Mennonites as there are fish in the sea) that it is hard to know where to start.
Among Mennonite congregations there are all the sins that every other church has, people who say one thing and do another, people who are respecters of persons, business owners who will cheat you at their place of business because "business is business" and see no contradiction between that and their so-called faith. Did you ever hear the joke about how a Mennonite is someone who can buy from a Jew and sell to a Scot and still make money? Sometimes jokes exist because they hold more than a grain of truth to them.
One of the specific things that I think is wrong in the traditional Mennonite practise of Christianity is adult baptism as it is practised or was practised when I was growing up. For all I know there are Mennonite churches who don't do it that way and never have so I'm lucky this isn't a debate board or I would have twenty zillion Mennonites popping up with their version of Mennonitism. So consider everything I say to have the standard debate board disclaimer: yes, it is entirely possible that not all Mennonite churches practise x,y,z as I have experienced it. I am not omnipresent in all the congregations at all times throughout the world.
So baptism in the Mennonite church as experienced by my parents and all the generations before them, meant that you had to be an adult and know what you were confessing your faith to. That did not include children of any age. It did not include the mentally disabled because they are God's children already.
In practise, adult baptism meant that Mennonites would get baptised just before they married since you couldn't be married in the church unless you were baptised. In practise, that meant that baptism came to mean nothing but that someone was getting married. If the church has a stranglehold on marriage and the only way to participate as a member of your community is to get baptised, then you do it - but it isn't necessarily because you have thought about it at all.
However, I don't know that this in many ways is something that only the Mennonite church has dealt with since before civil marriages became the norm, recently, most people got married in a church and most churches would not marry people unless they were members. So membership became important. It became important to be seen as an upstanding, contributing member of the community - but baptism, sadly, has not become an act of faith.
This is why I don't see infant baptism as so terrible. What is the difference between the infant who doesn't know what he is being baptised into or the adult who is being baptised because that is what is expected of him, not because he has come to an understanding and love of Christ?
Before they were baptised, they had to be able to recite from memory, the responses in the German catechism. Baptism was done by sprinkling in the church of my parents. There are and were churches who baptised by immersion. In fact, the debate about sprinkling and immersion caused a deep schism within the Mennonite churches, and was the cause of suicides.
Some of those who held that only baptism by immersion was valid convinced some who had been baptised by sprinkling to be re-baptised by immersion. Those who had then been re-baptised by immersion were told by the leaders in their church that they had committed an unforgivable sin, and had killed Christ twice over in being baptised twice. Spiritually left in a place where there was no winning, and in their minds, no hope of Heaven, and excommunicated by their original church in which were all the people dearest to them who were forbidden to eat, sleep or otherwise have contact with them, some people killed themselves over this.
I made an attempt to see if there was an article on the whole immersion/sprinkling controversy and suicides on the Internet but I couldn't find anything before I ran out of patience. I don't know how wide spread this was, but I know what I know because it happened to neighbours, and I remember that in my own life time it was still a controversy and hard feelings still exist between the Mennonite church who felt that sprinkling was an invalid baptism and the other churches who didn't.
The specific Mennonite church that I grew up in was far too legalistic and is still today from what I hear. Mennonites have not believed in the once saved always saved doctrine since it was unknown before Calvin and was never held by any Christian group before Calvin. That is not to say that God's grace does not cover us, only that we are warned repeatedly not to fall from that grace. It is one thing to know that we are all sinners and it is another to continue in sin under the false belief that we are saved anyway.
However, the church I grew up in took it one step further - they taught that no one at all can ever know that they are saved and are going to Heaven. For people who are spiritually hungry, what kind of message is that? That message alone drove people to kill themselves. They knew they were sinners, but to be told that no matter what they did or didn't do, they could never ever be sure of Heaven? Why try then? For people who are so thirsty for God to come to the living water and be turned away by self-appointed gate-keepers - that is unforgivable. If there is no knowing ever that you are saved, then life has no purpose at all and Christ has died in vain.
It infuriates me to think of what was taught in the church. It infuriates me to think of my grandfather when he lay on his deathbed, weeping because he feared death - feared death because, as any saint, he knew he was a sinner and fell far short of God's grace - but he had never been told by the church that God's grace and infinite mercy covers those sins we commit every day. If we could be perfect, Christ would never have had to come in the first place.
I don't want to give the impression that all Mennonite churches taught that way. I don't know if they did or didn't. I only know what the church I grew up in taught and I know that that was not uncommon. It was considered the sin of pride if you proclaimed that you were saved and you knew it.
Anyway, I knew even as a little girl that what they were preaching was wrong and it absolutely enraged me. Of course little girls had no say in the church but I knew.
Anyway, that's about all I can write for today. My intent was to list all the things I don't like about the Mennonite church because far too often it seems to me, I end up questioning you about some of your beliefs and if it comes across to me as though I think Mennonites have it all right and you have it all wrong, then I can imagine how it must come across to you even though I know I don't mean it that way.
Layla
There are things which I think that the Mennonites, but not exclusively the Mennonites, got right - there are a lot more things than just non-resistance that Mennonites hold dear and which I think they got right. I think it is easier for me to focus on what they got right because when it comes down to writing about what I hate about Mennonites, it all gets mooshed up with personalities, and ethnic peculiarities and there are so many things that aggravate the heck out of me about the Mennonites that I know (keeping in mind there are as many differences in theology about a lot of things among Mennonites as there are fish in the sea) that it is hard to know where to start.
Among Mennonite congregations there are all the sins that every other church has, people who say one thing and do another, people who are respecters of persons, business owners who will cheat you at their place of business because "business is business" and see no contradiction between that and their so-called faith. Did you ever hear the joke about how a Mennonite is someone who can buy from a Jew and sell to a Scot and still make money? Sometimes jokes exist because they hold more than a grain of truth to them.
One of the specific things that I think is wrong in the traditional Mennonite practise of Christianity is adult baptism as it is practised or was practised when I was growing up. For all I know there are Mennonite churches who don't do it that way and never have so I'm lucky this isn't a debate board or I would have twenty zillion Mennonites popping up with their version of Mennonitism. So consider everything I say to have the standard debate board disclaimer: yes, it is entirely possible that not all Mennonite churches practise x,y,z as I have experienced it. I am not omnipresent in all the congregations at all times throughout the world.
So baptism in the Mennonite church as experienced by my parents and all the generations before them, meant that you had to be an adult and know what you were confessing your faith to. That did not include children of any age. It did not include the mentally disabled because they are God's children already.
In practise, adult baptism meant that Mennonites would get baptised just before they married since you couldn't be married in the church unless you were baptised. In practise, that meant that baptism came to mean nothing but that someone was getting married. If the church has a stranglehold on marriage and the only way to participate as a member of your community is to get baptised, then you do it - but it isn't necessarily because you have thought about it at all.
However, I don't know that this in many ways is something that only the Mennonite church has dealt with since before civil marriages became the norm, recently, most people got married in a church and most churches would not marry people unless they were members. So membership became important. It became important to be seen as an upstanding, contributing member of the community - but baptism, sadly, has not become an act of faith.
This is why I don't see infant baptism as so terrible. What is the difference between the infant who doesn't know what he is being baptised into or the adult who is being baptised because that is what is expected of him, not because he has come to an understanding and love of Christ?
Before they were baptised, they had to be able to recite from memory, the responses in the German catechism. Baptism was done by sprinkling in the church of my parents. There are and were churches who baptised by immersion. In fact, the debate about sprinkling and immersion caused a deep schism within the Mennonite churches, and was the cause of suicides.
Some of those who held that only baptism by immersion was valid convinced some who had been baptised by sprinkling to be re-baptised by immersion. Those who had then been re-baptised by immersion were told by the leaders in their church that they had committed an unforgivable sin, and had killed Christ twice over in being baptised twice. Spiritually left in a place where there was no winning, and in their minds, no hope of Heaven, and excommunicated by their original church in which were all the people dearest to them who were forbidden to eat, sleep or otherwise have contact with them, some people killed themselves over this.
I made an attempt to see if there was an article on the whole immersion/sprinkling controversy and suicides on the Internet but I couldn't find anything before I ran out of patience. I don't know how wide spread this was, but I know what I know because it happened to neighbours, and I remember that in my own life time it was still a controversy and hard feelings still exist between the Mennonite church who felt that sprinkling was an invalid baptism and the other churches who didn't.
The specific Mennonite church that I grew up in was far too legalistic and is still today from what I hear. Mennonites have not believed in the once saved always saved doctrine since it was unknown before Calvin and was never held by any Christian group before Calvin. That is not to say that God's grace does not cover us, only that we are warned repeatedly not to fall from that grace. It is one thing to know that we are all sinners and it is another to continue in sin under the false belief that we are saved anyway.
However, the church I grew up in took it one step further - they taught that no one at all can ever know that they are saved and are going to Heaven. For people who are spiritually hungry, what kind of message is that? That message alone drove people to kill themselves. They knew they were sinners, but to be told that no matter what they did or didn't do, they could never ever be sure of Heaven? Why try then? For people who are so thirsty for God to come to the living water and be turned away by self-appointed gate-keepers - that is unforgivable. If there is no knowing ever that you are saved, then life has no purpose at all and Christ has died in vain.
It infuriates me to think of what was taught in the church. It infuriates me to think of my grandfather when he lay on his deathbed, weeping because he feared death - feared death because, as any saint, he knew he was a sinner and fell far short of God's grace - but he had never been told by the church that God's grace and infinite mercy covers those sins we commit every day. If we could be perfect, Christ would never have had to come in the first place.
I don't want to give the impression that all Mennonite churches taught that way. I don't know if they did or didn't. I only know what the church I grew up in taught and I know that that was not uncommon. It was considered the sin of pride if you proclaimed that you were saved and you knew it.
Anyway, I knew even as a little girl that what they were preaching was wrong and it absolutely enraged me. Of course little girls had no say in the church but I knew.
Anyway, that's about all I can write for today. My intent was to list all the things I don't like about the Mennonite church because far too often it seems to me, I end up questioning you about some of your beliefs and if it comes across to me as though I think Mennonites have it all right and you have it all wrong, then I can imagine how it must come across to you even though I know I don't mean it that way.
Layla
Holiness
This post too will probably end up being about bits and pieces here and there. I am also in a brain-dead mode.
I guess first of all I'll refer to your comments on my comments about holiness and your questioning how else to manage it. God is mentioned as "holy" far more than he is mentioned as a father or as a bridegroom or a husband. The word 'holiness' is the primary word used to describe God throughout the Bible. We are also instructed in various places, but with almost identical wording, as in Leviticus: For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Peter makes reference to that verse when he says in 1 Peter, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
This calls for our conversation to be holy, something that is sorely lacking among Christians. I actually think there it isn't that hard at all to see God as holy. I don't think that we can hang on to the notion of God as father or God as husband and think therefore he is not to be spoken of in a holy way. In the first place, I am not sure how many people actually care to think of God the Father as they would of their earthly fathers, who so often betray their children or otherwise let their children down. If we take God and turn him into an earthly father, I fear a lot of children with not very good fathers, would have a really hard time reconciling the two.
Secondly we see in how Jesus prayed in the Our Father - although he addressed God as Abba, father, as familiarly as a German speaker might say 'du' to a dear family member - the familiar form of 'you' - instead of 'Sie' - the formal form of 'you' in German, that there is nothing that is not holy in how Jesus is praying, right to the end when he says and thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever.
I think I may have touched on this before, that I don't believe at all in the whole once-saved, always-saved business. I think it is that very thing that has led to us treating the name of God with the casualness that we do. People think they won't have to account for their sins when we are told quite clearly that we will have to give account to God for every word we have spoken.
Where people think there is no accountability, there is also no respect. As I quoted in the previous post on holiness, the doctrine of Calvin that people can be once-saved, always saved is put to rest completely with,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It was never part of Mennonite theology that a person could not lose their salvation. Faith without works is dead. Mennonites did not go around talking about God and Jesus loves you and sticking a 'praise the Lord' into conversations when I was growing up. God's name was too holy for that. What was the point of sticking in a 'praise the Lord' when your very feet on the earth praised the Lord? And if people couldn't see whose servant you were by looking at you, there was something wrong with how you were living.
A lot of Mennonites are doing that now, out of ignorance of the Bible and the faith they were born into and they want to be 'in style' with the American version of Christianity, which for most people, means the version that is the loudest - evangelicals. It helps that it requires so little from you. You can do what you want, just as long as you stick in enough praise the Lords in your conversation.
Ignorance and following received faith can be a terrible, blinding thing.
A lot of people who were born into the once-saved, always saved idea also believe it because they have never thought about it, never read the Bible or thought about how, within the entire context of the Bible and not a few verses pulled out of context, that's not what Jesus preached and that's not what the apostles have to say. Context is everything. But too many people, period, are taught belief means not to question, that belief means not to think.
I think that is the biggest challenge for anyone - to really look at one's beliefs, no matter what they are, and try as hard as possible to approach all ideas with an open mind, confident that the Heavenly Father will guide you into what is true, if that is your strongest desire, and regardless of whether that leads one far afield of one's received beliefs. I stand completely in awe of people who have been born into something totally opposite of Christianity, and have of their own heart, come to the conclusion that Jesus is Lord.
Link.
Logically, it makes no sense at all in any case, since we are given an inner moral code, whether we are Christian or not, and we all recognize as people, that there are people who are only sorry about things when they get caught, and people who have learned that most people will accept apologies given for wrongs done. But there are some people who use that as an excuse to sin again - the apology therefore doesn't mean anything.
This scenario is addressed in Matthew 18 by Jesus: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Well, I lost my train of thought somewhere here along the line. I was going somewhere else with this and this is where I ended up so I'll just end this post for now. Hope you feel better soon. I can hardly wait, personally, until the New Year is over and life can get back to normal, or what passes for normal around here.
Layla
I guess first of all I'll refer to your comments on my comments about holiness and your questioning how else to manage it. God is mentioned as "holy" far more than he is mentioned as a father or as a bridegroom or a husband. The word 'holiness' is the primary word used to describe God throughout the Bible. We are also instructed in various places, but with almost identical wording, as in Leviticus: For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.
Peter makes reference to that verse when he says in 1 Peter, But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
This calls for our conversation to be holy, something that is sorely lacking among Christians. I actually think there it isn't that hard at all to see God as holy. I don't think that we can hang on to the notion of God as father or God as husband and think therefore he is not to be spoken of in a holy way. In the first place, I am not sure how many people actually care to think of God the Father as they would of their earthly fathers, who so often betray their children or otherwise let their children down. If we take God and turn him into an earthly father, I fear a lot of children with not very good fathers, would have a really hard time reconciling the two.
Secondly we see in how Jesus prayed in the Our Father - although he addressed God as Abba, father, as familiarly as a German speaker might say 'du' to a dear family member - the familiar form of 'you' - instead of 'Sie' - the formal form of 'you' in German, that there is nothing that is not holy in how Jesus is praying, right to the end when he says and thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory, forever.
I think I may have touched on this before, that I don't believe at all in the whole once-saved, always-saved business. I think it is that very thing that has led to us treating the name of God with the casualness that we do. People think they won't have to account for their sins when we are told quite clearly that we will have to give account to God for every word we have spoken.
Where people think there is no accountability, there is also no respect. As I quoted in the previous post on holiness, the doctrine of Calvin that people can be once-saved, always saved is put to rest completely with,
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
It was never part of Mennonite theology that a person could not lose their salvation. Faith without works is dead. Mennonites did not go around talking about God and Jesus loves you and sticking a 'praise the Lord' into conversations when I was growing up. God's name was too holy for that. What was the point of sticking in a 'praise the Lord' when your very feet on the earth praised the Lord? And if people couldn't see whose servant you were by looking at you, there was something wrong with how you were living.
A lot of Mennonites are doing that now, out of ignorance of the Bible and the faith they were born into and they want to be 'in style' with the American version of Christianity, which for most people, means the version that is the loudest - evangelicals. It helps that it requires so little from you. You can do what you want, just as long as you stick in enough praise the Lords in your conversation.
Ignorance and following received faith can be a terrible, blinding thing.
A lot of people who were born into the once-saved, always saved idea also believe it because they have never thought about it, never read the Bible or thought about how, within the entire context of the Bible and not a few verses pulled out of context, that's not what Jesus preached and that's not what the apostles have to say. Context is everything. But too many people, period, are taught belief means not to question, that belief means not to think.
I think that is the biggest challenge for anyone - to really look at one's beliefs, no matter what they are, and try as hard as possible to approach all ideas with an open mind, confident that the Heavenly Father will guide you into what is true, if that is your strongest desire, and regardless of whether that leads one far afield of one's received beliefs. I stand completely in awe of people who have been born into something totally opposite of Christianity, and have of their own heart, come to the conclusion that Jesus is Lord.
Link.
Logically, it makes no sense at all in any case, since we are given an inner moral code, whether we are Christian or not, and we all recognize as people, that there are people who are only sorry about things when they get caught, and people who have learned that most people will accept apologies given for wrongs done. But there are some people who use that as an excuse to sin again - the apology therefore doesn't mean anything.
This scenario is addressed in Matthew 18 by Jesus: Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Well, I lost my train of thought somewhere here along the line. I was going somewhere else with this and this is where I ended up so I'll just end this post for now. Hope you feel better soon. I can hardly wait, personally, until the New Year is over and life can get back to normal, or what passes for normal around here.
Layla
Wednesday, December 26, 2007
Indestructible People? Tidbits.
That's my tree, which (except for the top foot or so) my kids decorated with wooden, plastic, and fabric ornaments. The few glass ornaments are up top. You like birds, I love angels! All the angels HAVE to go up on the top part of the tree... they have to!! :) I don't have a theme tree, I have a "here are the boxes of ornaments, have at it". Dread to think about any projects requiring needle and thread with the littles... or actual food on my tree (dog would eat it if they didn't).
Indestructible people. Yes, we're all supposed to be sooo careful now. At least those of us protecting children are supposed to be on watch at all times lest they get a papercut. Helicopter parents... never underestimate the power of peer pressure. I'm a pretty laid-back gal, but I get plenty of it. "Oh you let your kids outside without you?" (My kids are 7 and 3, and "outside" is a tiny little yard). When my daughter cut her lip this fall, I had to explain the cause of the accident to no less than three people in the ER. Last year, they felt that my son had been out sick too much, and I got a nasty-gram threatening me with CPS if things didn't turn around (yes, but don't send your child to school sick... but send him... but don't). UGH. It's horrible. If I put candles on my tree my neighbors would probably report me to the fire marshal. :/ Okay, kidding on the last, but my husband would never go for it.
God's holiness and "Jeez". I think we have a problem, as humans, holding holiness in our heads as a concept. I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that the evangelical church goes way too far on the familiarity route - but how else to manage things? Facets of the Truth include Jesus as husband to the church, God as Father to each individual Christian and to the nation of Israel as a whole, us being "no longer servants, but sons". I am very familiar with Him in my prayer life - especially when I'm really praying hard. At the same time, I shy away from thinking of being with Him in Heaven, except from afar. The concept of being near that much holiness frightens me (I think it's supposed to). I'd like to talk further about this...
Prosperity preachers: Oh, I think going over the top with material comforts is sinful (how much is the church paying you vs. how much does it send to missions... how many cars does one person need?) but I meant more that they will push and push for more gifts and not disclose that it's going in their pockets and not to the church or outreach or ... whathave you. Lying about God's money is a bad thing. At the same time, I think paying preachers frees them to get deeply into the study of the Word of God and to do the "pastor stuff". Pay them a reasonable, professional salary - enough so their wives can stay home (pastor's wife is a hard job) and their kids can get braces, not so much that they're wearing Armani suits. There's a line there... and that's what church boards are for.
Balaam: No, Dr. McGee didn't get the info on Balaam from that book, I remember the sermon vaguely... he got it from different places in the Bible. See Numbers 25, where the people promptly intermarried (and intergodded) with the daughters of Moab as soon as Balaam left Balak. Numbers 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague amongst the congregation of the Lord. Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Israel had continuing problem with marrying foreigners and then taking their gods - including Solomon. Now, is the modern day "god" maybe the love of money? I could definitely go there.
Okay proper well thought out posts coming soon... :) I want to get into the holiness discussion deeply, it's something well worth thinking on in my personal life. Hope your Christmas was bright!
Hearth
Indestructible people. Yes, we're all supposed to be sooo careful now. At least those of us protecting children are supposed to be on watch at all times lest they get a papercut. Helicopter parents... never underestimate the power of peer pressure. I'm a pretty laid-back gal, but I get plenty of it. "Oh you let your kids outside without you?" (My kids are 7 and 3, and "outside" is a tiny little yard). When my daughter cut her lip this fall, I had to explain the cause of the accident to no less than three people in the ER. Last year, they felt that my son had been out sick too much, and I got a nasty-gram threatening me with CPS if things didn't turn around (yes, but don't send your child to school sick... but send him... but don't). UGH. It's horrible. If I put candles on my tree my neighbors would probably report me to the fire marshal. :/ Okay, kidding on the last, but my husband would never go for it.
God's holiness and "Jeez". I think we have a problem, as humans, holding holiness in our heads as a concept. I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that the evangelical church goes way too far on the familiarity route - but how else to manage things? Facets of the Truth include Jesus as husband to the church, God as Father to each individual Christian and to the nation of Israel as a whole, us being "no longer servants, but sons". I am very familiar with Him in my prayer life - especially when I'm really praying hard. At the same time, I shy away from thinking of being with Him in Heaven, except from afar. The concept of being near that much holiness frightens me (I think it's supposed to). I'd like to talk further about this...
Prosperity preachers: Oh, I think going over the top with material comforts is sinful (how much is the church paying you vs. how much does it send to missions... how many cars does one person need?) but I meant more that they will push and push for more gifts and not disclose that it's going in their pockets and not to the church or outreach or ... whathave you. Lying about God's money is a bad thing. At the same time, I think paying preachers frees them to get deeply into the study of the Word of God and to do the "pastor stuff". Pay them a reasonable, professional salary - enough so their wives can stay home (pastor's wife is a hard job) and their kids can get braces, not so much that they're wearing Armani suits. There's a line there... and that's what church boards are for.
Balaam: No, Dr. McGee didn't get the info on Balaam from that book, I remember the sermon vaguely... he got it from different places in the Bible. See Numbers 25, where the people promptly intermarried (and intergodded) with the daughters of Moab as soon as Balaam left Balak. Numbers 31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague amongst the congregation of the Lord. Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication. Israel had continuing problem with marrying foreigners and then taking their gods - including Solomon. Now, is the modern day "god" maybe the love of money? I could definitely go there.
Okay proper well thought out posts coming soon... :) I want to get into the holiness discussion deeply, it's something well worth thinking on in my personal life. Hope your Christmas was bright!
Hearth
Tuesday, December 25, 2007
Merry Christmas!
What a beautiful tree! I will post a pic of mine tomorrow or so... it may be the polar opposite of yours, it's all very indestructible (for reasons obvious to anyone with small children, particularly small children who remove the ornaments to stage mini battles with them).
I have read your posts, but have been working hard to get Christmas (the secular version) happening. Tomorrow is my day to go brain dead and veg out - I promise that there will be some deep thoughts coming and decent posts in the very near future. I keep having them, then I start thinking about wrapping or visiting or something. :)
HUGS and I hope your Christmas was truly merry and bright with the Love of our Lord.
PS - no, it's not dark here, we even got a beautiful day's weather, warmed up an extra 10 degrees just for Christmas. Shorts weather as usual for Christmas day... tomorrow we go back to unseasonable cold and having to wear shoes or pants or something. (wink)
I have read your posts, but have been working hard to get Christmas (the secular version) happening. Tomorrow is my day to go brain dead and veg out - I promise that there will be some deep thoughts coming and decent posts in the very near future. I keep having them, then I start thinking about wrapping or visiting or something. :)
HUGS and I hope your Christmas was truly merry and bright with the Love of our Lord.
PS - no, it's not dark here, we even got a beautiful day's weather, warmed up an extra 10 degrees just for Christmas. Shorts weather as usual for Christmas day... tomorrow we go back to unseasonable cold and having to wear shoes or pants or something. (wink)
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