Biblical Literalism

This kind of pertains to what we've been discussing. Do you find that the Christians you know are more loving, hospitable, compassionate, etc., than the non-Christians you know? If not, then what exactly do those virtues mean as they pertain to the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

I guess what I am thinking is that I don't believe that everyone receives gifts from the Holy Spirit. I don't believe in tongues as they are practised by Charismatic churches. I see no difference between that and the trances that shamans go into when they are possessed by non-Christian spirits.

I still remember when there was the laughter movement within the charismatic churches, in which they claimed the Holy Spirit manifested Himself within the congregations with hysterical laughter, in which whole congregations simply rolled around the churches, holding their bellies and laughing. Hello, people. Our God is not the author of confusion. God, in the scriptures, always has a point. They may indeed have been possessed by some spirit but the Spirit of God is not that of being drunk with laughter. There is nothing that points to God at all in such nonsense.

I don't believe that there are any modern day prophecies as they relate to the time of the end, or even the individual. I will be happy to change my mind on empirical proof that any Christian anywhere has given any prophecy pertaining to an individual or a world event that has come true since the dawn of Christianity.

It would seem to me, that just as the miracles of Jesus stood out as exceptional and supernatural - raising the dead, for instance in front of many people who surely had seen enough death to know what death meant, that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, would also be exceptional and supernatural in form - such as the visible tongues of fire that descended upon the disciples at Pentecost, and the resulting miracle that each man heard the gospel in their own language. I don't understand how such a practical application and explanation of tongues evolved into the gibberish speaking in tongues that some churches now believe in.

Sometimes one hears of exceptional stories of strength, such as lifting a car off a person. A gift of hospitality or mercy, it seems to me, would show itself as exceptional. Allowing for differences of personality, I know of no one who is exceptional in a way that would strike me as miraculous. In other words, I don't believe that God shares his glory or credit. When God speaks, there's no doubt who's speaking. If there is doubt, it's not God but one's own wishful thinking.

I think that there is a problem in reading the scriptures about these gifts that were given to the early church for its survival. Just as the snake handlers take up snakes and drink poisons based on Mark 16: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I do not believe that God meant us to go willy-nilly picking up poisonous snakes or drinking poison. And if he did not mean that, he can't either have meant that the church would necessarily always have the power to cast out devils or speak with new tongues. Miracles are a sign to those who do not believe. They were essential for the early church. It seems to me that they are now handled by some churches, as though God is a trick pony that the church can make jump through hoops for entertainment purposes.

Can you pick and choose among snakes and casting out devils without admitting that there is a problem in being consistent in one's interpretation of Biblical passages? When the scriptures say that whoever has faith the size of a mustard seed has the power to move mountains - are we to take it to mean that we should move mountains?

However, I do believe that if for some reason, God wants me at Place "B" there is no obstacle that can stand in my way that God will not move. My interpretation or understanding of that scripture is both literal and not literal, depending on how you look at it. The snake handlers would say that it is not literal.

I think that, in the entire context of Mark 16, and including what happened to Paul when he was bitten by a serpent and did not die, that God was speaking of accidental encounters with serpents and involuntary encounters with poisons. The situation Paul was in for instance, took place in front of people, who saw then the power of God. I believe that God was saying that he has our life in his hands, and when he says we die, we die and not before, regardless of accidental encounters with serpents.

As Jesus said when Satan tempted him with the notion of throwing himself off a cliff because "...it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone."

Jesus responded, "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God."

So clearly we are warned by this example to be careful how much weight we put on any one Bible verse as what they say is conditional upon others, conditional upon common sense.

Layla

I know what you mean - in a way. However, somehow it doesn't make sense to me. If mercy and love and hospitality and teaching were traits only Christians had, then you have a point. But people have such traits regardless of faith or lack of faith. It may still be a "gift" in the sense that some people are better at some things than others, but specifically Christian? Only in the sense that we are made in God's image which is the reason why we possess these qualities to begin with - believer and non-believer alike. But they are always there. They may deepen as a result of loving God, and having a conscious knowledge of God.

But since I believe - know - that God exists - and believe that all life comes from God, God's existence - His goodness - His mercy is not dependent on whether anyone at all believes in Him and the qualities that He passed on, when He made man in His image, exist in humanity regardless of belief. To me, all goodness in the world is a reflection of what Paul said to the Galatians about how they, in their ignorance, and imperfectly,
already worshipped God the Father and the Son, when they worshipped the Unknown God.

I see the whole thing in a much broader way, in a societal sense. Like we need the garbage man and the business owner. The food store and the flower shop. The mechanic and the doctor. And everything works together to make life better for all of us.

However, I also think that if love of God is part of a person, the way it ought to be part of a person, that person isn't thinking in terms of gifts, or in terms of being specifically Christian - it is in the air that they breathe. To me, the other way, implies consciously thinking of doing good which isn't a bad thing by any means, particularly if the other choice is doing bad things, but if doing good is a part of your nature, it wouldn't require thought, would it? If doing what is good and right is "natural", it doesn't involve thinking consciously about those things.

I don't know. I just can't seem to think like that. I'd rather just do.

Layla

Clarification, verses

Possibly this is a thing that the evangelical church gets more "into" because you know we're all into self-realisation (err... not that this is a good thing maybe), but there is discussion of the spiritual gifts that believers get in a few spots in the Bible - let me start with Romans 12: 4-8, the list there is prophecy, ministry, teaching, exhortation, giving, ruling, and mercy. There's some difference of opinion about whether prophecy means *really* hard hitting new insights into the scriptures or just literal prophecy, but the others are reasonably obvious. Everyone has something that they're particularly good at. I, for instance, am not particulary a good teacher. I would like to be, I try to be - but it's not my gift. I am gifted in mercy - people find me, and I always find I have more to give, effortlessly. This goes above and beyond my Christian obligation to show mercy or hospitality - folks gifted with those are AWESOME at it. For instance, you don't like dealing with uninvited guests, it's an effort to you. The person gifted with hospitality somehow always has a clean (enough) house, plenty of random food, and the energy to deal.

We are not all equally gifted in all areas - and we aren't supposed to be. Paul prefaces his listing of gifts by saying, in 1 Corinthians 12:4-6 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. and there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God who worketh all in all. (The discussion of gifts continues throughout chp 12, and through the end of chp 14, with some asides).

So this would go above and beyond our general Christian duty to show love to our neighbors in whatever way that they need, this would be our specific gift.

Does that begin to make more sense?

Dazed

Maybe I am having a senior moment, but in a weird sort of way, I don't have a clue what you mean and I think it is because you are compartmentalizing certain things by referring to them as spiritual gifts. Belief and life are not separated in my head that way. Just like I don't do the A, B,C thing - to me life is God.

I know what I feel I was always meant to do but I don't feel that it leads to evangelisation or prophecy or anything like that. And we're told to love our neighbour as our selves but while some people may have more of a gift for it than others, it doesn't exclude people from loving their neighbour as themselves just because it's harder for them then those that are naturally more empathetic.

I think the problem is with the word "gift" (for me). It's like some people can draw and some people can barely draw a straight line and that happens among Christians and non-Christians alike, so I don't understand how a spiritual context might be applied to that.

For example, should Christians who can draw, draw only Christian things/themes? And if you're not including gifts such as artistry, but referring to things such as evangelisation and prophecy and church leadership, then I am ungifted. I have no calling to those things at all in the sense that God is not compartmentalized in my mind that way.

For example, if "Bob" comes to me with a problem, I am not thinking "how can I save Bob? How can I make a Christian point?" I am empathizing with Bob's problem. Maybe "Bob" is hungry. I feed "Bob." That's just what I do. I don't think to myself that I am feeding Bob in Jesus' name or exercising a spiritual gift. I'm not thinking necessarily, specifically about God at all but because I love Jesus, by definition, everything I do and say is about Jesus in a certain way. It's not compartmentalized in my head though.

Which doesn't mean that the conversation might not turn to God because Bob might say "How could God let this happen to me?" and so a conversation about how we see God might ensue.

To me, your question is like asking me what I do specifically as a human woman. Since I have never been anything other than a human woman, there is nothing that I have to separate it from. If you see what I mean.

I have people in and out of my life as well, very often people who are have difficult lives. I listen where I think I ought to listen, offer hope where I think I ought to offer hope, etc. but I'm having trouble placing that in the context you place it into. I don't feel that this is a calling but rather something that everyone does or should do. In other words, I don't think it is odd or somehow special that anyone does this - to me it is odd when people don't do that, Christian or non-Christian.

I've quoted the verse before (paraphrasing here) "What does the Lord require of you but to walk humbly before God, and to love justice..." To me that is "working for God." But I don't know that I would call it a gift. As someone once said, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good men to stay silent.

Anyway, I'm a little lost here and I'm not sure why...

Layla

Eternal purpose

It's very clear in Scripture that each of us is to serve a spiritual purpose while we're here in this world, and that those purposes are different. We are each given gifts and asked to use them. I know we've talked a little bit about this before, how the Mennonite way isn't to evangelize but to be there in person and show good works and come alongside folks who need help and witness through an upstanding life.

While that's a part (a big part) of what I'm talking about, I'm also talking about the other spiritual gifts - service, exhortation, prophecy, counsel, discernment, etc. How are you working for God in this world? How effective do you feel like you are? What do you hunger to do more of? How does this fit with your theology?

I was thinking about this in regards to a friend of mine who I am burdened to be very close to right now, pestering him constantly to keep his life in line with God's will. It would drive me bats to have someone do this to me, but he needs it and it doesn't bug him. I have friends that I'm just "friends" with - you know, the folks you know just need a friend?

All my life, I've had people come in and out of my "circle". It's not like when they leave I forget them, but.... the season is past and they'ved moved on. And then God brings me someone new to befriend, someone new to counsel, someone new to show love to - someone new to witness to.

So - that's what I am, that's what I do. What is it that you do? That you *need* to work on to feel whole? That calls you and keeps you up at night?

Clarified, disagreed with

You did clarify. I totally disagree... but to be brutally honest, I think we will both be corrected once we get Home. :)

Surgery is on Tuesday, if you pray please pray for steady hands while he gets the nerves pulled out of the scar tissue and pray now, if you will, for steady nerves on my end!

What's next on the discussion list?

Losing salvation

Yes, I absolutely believe that a real Christian can sin and lose their salvation. By that I do not mean that sins of ignorance lead you there, or even that by simply failing to be perfect (since we can't be perfect, that's where grace comes in) causes one to lose one's salvation.

I am not saying that there is a specific sin that can cause an individual to lose his salvation since I think that the sinning that causes a person to lose his or her salvation is dependant on the individual himself. How that person thinks about himself and his sin. As when Paul says that to eat unclean foods is not a sin unless you eat without being fully convinced in your own mind. Therefore to consciously keep doing something that you fully believe is sinful, or someone who deliberately hurts other people all the time, knowing the hurt he or she is causing - those are things that can cause a person to lose their salvation.

I think there is a deliberate and conscious choice involved in losing one's salvation just as there is a deliberate and conscious choice involved in choosing one's salvation. I don't believe there is a formula involved in either so I can't say precisely what could cause another to lose that salvation. I could say, if I knew a person well, if I thought they were in danger of losing their salvation based on how they live, as when Christians are told to warn each other in brotherly love.

Where maybe I could, theoretically, given what I believe about divorce, divorce my husband without feeling any condemnation, that doesn't mean that it would not be sinful for another person.

In Galatians, Paul says "Be not deceived for God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that he shall also reap. For he that soweth to the flesh shall reap corruption" but he that soweth to the spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

There are a lot of Christians whose lives show nothing of what they claim to believe. Who use the liberty of Christ for license to sin. The above verse shows it isn't a matter of losing some sort of reward in Heaven but of reaping corruption, or spiritual death.

In the parable of the talents, one of those who is given a talent buries it instead of using it to create more wealth. He is like the Christian who, having professed Christ, believes he is always saved, but he is not. He is not living his faith.

As to fear of Hell - some people start at that point and then learn to love God. Others love God first, and what "fear" of God there is comes as they consider the I AM that I AM. There's nothing wrong with a prod of fear as every parent knows although if the fear aspect overrides the mercy aspect, there is a problem.

And you know, it took me a while to realize we were thinking different things when you talk about "rewards" in Heaven, since I have never understood that as anything more than a metaphor. I've never thought about losing or gaining some sort of special, tangible reward in Heaven and I'm still not sure that isn't just a metaphor like the vineyard.

It isn't fear that drives me at all, except in the way that I am sometimes overwhelmed as in "Oh Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder, consider all the worlds thy hands have made...."

As a child, I think I was born with a sense of the divine that never really left me in the sense that I did not have to learn it. I first loved God. Then later, I learned fear because the church that I grew up in, while not given to fire and brimstone sermons, told me that no one could ever know they were saved until they died. I had loved God wholly and unselfconsciously. Now there was fear. For myself, for my family. I couldn't imagine wanting to be in Heaven if anyone I loved was in Hell.

But I never entirely swallowed that no one can ever know line either, because I had the gift of loving God from the time I was born. Without that gift though, I can easily see how people might have been overwhelmed by despair. Me, more or less around the age of six, decided "bullshit." Around fourteen or fifteen I stopped going to church. I am a pretty self-contained person. It wasn't a big "I am turning my back on the church" thing. It just didn't strike me as relevant. God was always in my life.

I think now, that not going to church, probably saved my life. I think it would have worn me down eventually. They would surely have excommunicated me somewhere down the line because I don't think I could have kept my mouth shut forever and I would almost surely have offended the powers-that-be, and the powers-that-be in the church where I grew up are close relatives. *G* Excommunication would have been a big deal in terms of relating to my neighbours and if I had built my house on that sand, I would have no ground under me. Now I am just a fairly run-of-the-mill heathen, I think, in people's eyes. This area isn't so completely suffocatingly Mennonite anymore either, and I can't think of a Mennonite family in which a divorce hasn't happened. But back then...

Don't know if I'm clarifying anything or further confusing the issue? When is your surgery? I'll be praying for you. Next week, probably Wednesday, I'll be leaving on a trip.

Layla