Don't feel bad. I think that you have the right idea in many ways, it's just that the example isn't true. There are a lot of urban myths circulating in the Christian world - this sort of ties into my refusal to accept end-of-the-world prophecies from anything other than the Bible. When you Google certain terms - paranoic Christian things - you'll come up with a whole host of things in which it is written slanted to give a certain impression.
My instinct is always that if it sounds too ridiculous to be true, it probably is, and for anything, not just religious stuff, I tend to first sort through what is reasonable and plausible and possible before I jump to a supernatural conclusion.
Where I think you are right is that traditional moral Bible guidelines are constantly being blurred to the point where even Christians do not always know what is the right thing to do. I think there will be a war-war, but there is also a war of ideas and spirits going on and that pressure to conform will only increase as time goes by.
Did you ever think that one of the side-effects of the scrambling of languages at the Tower of Babel separated the nations in a good way? When God says, that, with a common language "nothing shall be impossible unto them", it is true that a common language seems to up the mischief factor that people can get into. And English is pretty much the lingua franca of the day.
I would just rather we not jump at shadows and so miss the real threats. And I honestly think that Christians are their own worst enemies when they expect the state to follow the Bible.
I also think that many Americans confuse socialism (which Canada is - a social democracy) with communism, which Canada is not. I recall one debate during which an American whom I suppose most Americans would regard as left-wing or left-of-centre, basically stated that she believed that the US was the only country in the world with free speech. And yet, for all that, apparently American communists cannot be school teachers in at least some of your states. I don't understand that. Doesn't freedom apply to everyone?
Canada had at least one communist big-city mayor in the 60s and 70s that I know of, and many other communists in other positions. One of our Prime Ministers was apparently on the list of Canadians not allowed into the US due to his travels before he was Prime Minister in communist countries. It hardly seems to be fair to accuse communist countries of keeping their citizens prisoners when communists are restricted in their activities in the US. So much for freedom of ideas.
I also think that many Americans think that freedom includes the right to say what you damned well please, no matter who it hurts. I don't believe that. I don't believe in an automatic right to say anything in any situation at any time. A lot of it is common sense - don't yell "fire" in a theatre - don't incite racial hatred or any other hatred. It's like if five big crazy guys ask for your wallet in a dark alley - would you assert your right to free speech and tell them you think they are a brick short a load, or would you say, "Here's my wallet?" Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.
You have to pick your battles and I don't waste my energy on people who don't believe in God. Why would I hold them to God's standards? God gave me the freedom of will - why would I not extend it to others?
I have full confidence that when the Lord reigns over the world, he will judge and rule righteously, and sort out all our confusion, sexual and otherwise, and then we will be in no doubt at all as to what way is God's way and what is not.
I don't think, based on what I read, that Boisson is in any danger of being fined. If anything, the paper who published his letter-to-the-editor might be fined as they obviously have to use a certain amount of discretion in what they publish. We are a very politically correct country by and large. Some people don't like that and some do.
Me, all in all, I like it. I like it that we don't have the KKK here. I'm happy that our laws infringe on their "freedom" of speech. I like it that Holocaust deniers are charged under the hate crimes laws. They are spreading lies. Why should lies be covered under "freedom?"
On the other hand, you could have a church pastor preach whatever he wanted to about race, and that is covered under our conscience laws. There is no danger at all to freedom of religion. I'm not saying that that day will not come, I'm only saying it isn't here yet, nor is that train anywhere in sight. Christ is preached every day in Canada without any fear of arrest.
Layla
Monday, June 9, 2008
Yikes!
I've been caught out, believing (and perpetuating) an urban legend.
My apologies to you, and whatever readers we have.
It doesn't dissuade me from my position, but I'll edit that out of my brain... thank you!
My apologies to you, and whatever readers we have.
It doesn't dissuade me from my position, but I'll edit that out of my brain... thank you!
I think I found what you're referring to
But it's not the way you put it if the case in question is about Stephen Boisson. I am quite confident that no pastors are being arrested in Canada in their pulpits for reading Romans or anything else from the Bible. This case of Stephen Boisson is the closest thing I could come to, and probably what you are referencing. And it's not about the Bible, it is about his comments on gays in a non-religious forum - the newspape, not the pulpit. And he's not been arrested or fined (yet) nor will he be sent to jail.
I read a number of sites that have bits and pieces about this case but nothing that gives me a clear picture of what happened. I don't necessarily believe Mr. Boisson's slant on his website either, although maybe that is the way it happened.
Generally speaking though, I believe freedom of speech comes with responsibility and I don't believe that people ought to be able to say whatever they want to say in whatever forum just because they have an opinion. Opinions, are like you-know-whats - everyone has them. I don't believe that letters written in the style of Mr. Boisson's does anyone any good. It doesn't follow that I think he should be fined or forced into a public apology, but I just don't think he did Christ any good.
Christ didn't go out railing at the fallen women of the world, or the homosexuals. He spoke to the individual about grace and forgiveness. He knew that they knew when they were doing wrong. They didn't need to be told they were wrong. The people who needed most to be told they were wrong were the religious leaders who thought they had figured it out.
And you know, all kinds of things happen in Alberta that never happen anywhere else, with all due apologies to Albertans. It's like our version of Texas. Bigger, better, louder, richer. I recall a teacher there teaching students that the Holocaust was a lie and he too jumped on the freedom of speech band wagon....
But you can't take an example that is extreme and assume that it is the norm, even if your original belief that some pastor had been hauled out of his own church pew was true. There are nuts on the side of the law as well, who every now and then behave irrationally and contrary to the law. The system has never failed to straighten itself out.
My husband remembers when he was a kid in school many years ago and in order to promote dental hygiene, toothbrushes were handed out to students, and the parents said, "It's a communist plot...."
Layla
I read a number of sites that have bits and pieces about this case but nothing that gives me a clear picture of what happened. I don't necessarily believe Mr. Boisson's slant on his website either, although maybe that is the way it happened.
Generally speaking though, I believe freedom of speech comes with responsibility and I don't believe that people ought to be able to say whatever they want to say in whatever forum just because they have an opinion. Opinions, are like you-know-whats - everyone has them. I don't believe that letters written in the style of Mr. Boisson's does anyone any good. It doesn't follow that I think he should be fined or forced into a public apology, but I just don't think he did Christ any good.
Christ didn't go out railing at the fallen women of the world, or the homosexuals. He spoke to the individual about grace and forgiveness. He knew that they knew when they were doing wrong. They didn't need to be told they were wrong. The people who needed most to be told they were wrong were the religious leaders who thought they had figured it out.
And you know, all kinds of things happen in Alberta that never happen anywhere else, with all due apologies to Albertans. It's like our version of Texas. Bigger, better, louder, richer. I recall a teacher there teaching students that the Holocaust was a lie and he too jumped on the freedom of speech band wagon....
But you can't take an example that is extreme and assume that it is the norm, even if your original belief that some pastor had been hauled out of his own church pew was true. There are nuts on the side of the law as well, who every now and then behave irrationally and contrary to the law. The system has never failed to straighten itself out.
My husband remembers when he was a kid in school many years ago and in order to promote dental hygiene, toothbrushes were handed out to students, and the parents said, "It's a communist plot...."
Layla
A quick reply for clarification
***Just to clarify, I don't necessarily think that homosexual *attraction* is a choice, but that *any* sexual behavior is a choice. I'm heterosexual... but I confine my sexuality to my husband. That's a choice. It doesn't negate the fact that occasionally (not often, but sometimes) I am attracted to other men. But I am, as an adult human, capable of not following through on those attractions.
***I am, as a mother, far more well-aware of the horrors of CPS seizures than I would like to be. Unfortunately for all of us, they've made a lot of semi-governmental agencies powerful enough to take what is essentially military action. Conservatives across America have noted this, yet the vast majority of the people are more interested in the pursuit of happiness than in freedom. It pains me.
***I will look up the Canadian pastor at first opportunity. You might be interested before I get there, to read the first two chapters of Romans for yourself. I believe he was jailed for hatespeech. Perhaps it was fined? At any rate... I will find it for you.
Hope your Monday is good!
***I am, as a mother, far more well-aware of the horrors of CPS seizures than I would like to be. Unfortunately for all of us, they've made a lot of semi-governmental agencies powerful enough to take what is essentially military action. Conservatives across America have noted this, yet the vast majority of the people are more interested in the pursuit of happiness than in freedom. It pains me.
***I will look up the Canadian pastor at first opportunity. You might be interested before I get there, to read the first two chapters of Romans for yourself. I believe he was jailed for hatespeech. Perhaps it was fined? At any rate... I will find it for you.
Hope your Monday is good!
The mysterious new tribe
Now on to the so-called undiscovered Amazon tribe. I don't believe that when Jesus said that the gospel would be preached throughout the world that he meant necessarily to each individual tribe. "All the world" means simply widely known, as Christianity is widely known throughout all the world and not limited to Jerusalem, or Rome for example and the areas Jesus actually walked, or Peter, or the rest of the apostles.
It is like taking all the people within a city block and because you find one who has never heard of God, taking it to mean that Christ will therefore not return until that one person has heard of the gospel. The whole rest of the block knows - therefore the knowledge can safely be caused common knowledge.
So the discovery of a new tribe makes no difference to when Christ comes at all. Christ is known in the countries that border the Amazon, and by tribes that border the so-called undiscovered tribe. But I do not take the Bible to mean that each individual person needs to have heard about Jesus before He will come.
However, in the second place, I don't believe either that this is a "new" tribe that has never had contact with the outside world. They may not currently have contact with the outside world due to bad experiences in the past, but I'd bet my house that they've had contact with others at some point. Even tribes don't live in a vacuum.
I've heard this on many news stations reporting on this so-called new tribe. Here's a link that about covers it: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/30/2260586.htm
Layla
It is like taking all the people within a city block and because you find one who has never heard of God, taking it to mean that Christ will therefore not return until that one person has heard of the gospel. The whole rest of the block knows - therefore the knowledge can safely be caused common knowledge.
So the discovery of a new tribe makes no difference to when Christ comes at all. Christ is known in the countries that border the Amazon, and by tribes that border the so-called undiscovered tribe. But I do not take the Bible to mean that each individual person needs to have heard about Jesus before He will come.
However, in the second place, I don't believe either that this is a "new" tribe that has never had contact with the outside world. They may not currently have contact with the outside world due to bad experiences in the past, but I'd bet my house that they've had contact with others at some point. Even tribes don't live in a vacuum.
I've heard this on many news stations reporting on this so-called new tribe. Here's a link that about covers it: http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/05/30/2260586.htm
Layla
Sunday, June 8, 2008
Canadian Freedom of Religion
I'm going to respond to your first post, first, since you obviously caught my attention with " hear pastors in Canada have been arrested for just *reading* Romans 2 from the pulpit - no commentary - just reading. "
I think that lots of urban myths circulate the church world, and unless you can find me a link to this, I don't believe it. I Googled every imaginable combination trying to discover this story and came up with nothing.
Since many schools in Canada still say the Lord's Prayer as part of their regular school day and prayers are said in our Parliament, it just seems highly unlikely that any pastors were ever arrested for reading the Bible in their own pulpits.
I know Americans find it hard to believe but I think we have far more freedom of speech in Canada than you guys do in the US. In the first place, our titular head is the Queen of England who is also the head of the Church of England. And our Parliament opens with this prayer.
Almighty God, we give thanks for the great blessings which have been bestowed on Canada and its citizens, including the gifts of freedom, opportunity and peace that we enjoy. We pray for our Sovereign, Queen Elizabeth, and the Governor General. Guide us in our deliberations as Members of Parliament, and strengthen us in our awareness of our duties and responsibilities as Members. Grant us wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to preserve the blessings of this country for the benefit of all and to make good laws and wise decisions. Amen.
It varies from province to province, but many public schools in Canada still open with the Lord's Prayer. Freedom of religion has never meant freedom from religion as it seems to do in the US. Here's a link that provides a summary of prayer in different provinces: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/02/13/lords-prayer.html
What I think many American Christians don't realize is that freedom is a two-way street. We have same-sex marriage and that sort of tolerance also flows back to Christians who practise their religion. People just don't get their shorts in such a knot as they seem to do in the US over every mention of public prayer.
The way I see it, American Christians have shot themselves in the foot with their involvement in politics and thinking to impose their beliefs on secular Americans. When you decide that someone else's right are not important, you are also opening a door to having someone decide that your rights are not important. You set a precedent for your own rights to be taken away at someone else's whim. A door lets traffic in both ways. Maybe that is why people generally are more content to live and let live here.
In Ontario, there is now a movement underway to change the Lord's Prayer in schools, but if you read this link, then you will notice a comment by a Jew who recited the Lord's Prayer in public school and his opinion that "it hadn't changed him."
So now just how a pastor could be arrested for reading the Bible when we have prayer in our schools and in our government, is illogical. Interestingly, a recent poll stated that 33 percent of Canadians do not believe in a god whereas only 8 percent of Americans say the same. That's a big difference and yet there is far less dissension and more acceptance here with regards to religion than there is in the US.
Witness the recent Texas polygamy thing. Just how people can go into another person's home with no more than the word of a known liar and troublemaker, and take away, not one child, but four hundred plus children and say there is freedom of religion in the US is beyond me. Which isn't to say that I support polygamy or anything but I'm telling you, that if they can do that there, they can do that anywhere in the US.
Americans like to think of themselves as individualists, and yet, when it comes to alternative lifestyles, be it by way of same sex unions, polygamists or immigrants who speak their own language, Americans want everyone to fit the same cookie cutter mould. Diversity is really not celebrated or much tolerated. Everyone has to be Americanized. We think entirely differently here in Canada where multi-culturalism is celebrated, not the whole melting pot idea.
As far as same-sex attraction and it being a choice, unlike the color of your skin, I don't believe that is true. If birth defects were limited to mobility, you would have a point but people are born sometimes intersexed - as hermaphrodites. So it is possible for people to be born sexually confused in a physical sense and if so, then why is it not possible for people to be born mentally confused about sexuality? We know more than we used to about the human brain but we don't know everything. Christians can be schizophrenic, bi-polar and depressives, without ever once having chosen it in any sense of the word due to something that went wrong in their genetic makeup, so it isn't a stretch at all to think that attraction to your own sex is also the result of something beyond their control.
I am not saying that homosexuality isn't a sin according to the Bible. I am only saying that I don't buy that it is always a choice. It may be a choice for some to experiment, to play with boundaries. There have always been people who wanted to push boundaries, who are thrill seekers and expressing themselves in all sorts of different non-traditional sexual ways, whether with a menage a trois, or with their own sex can also be part of that behaviour. But not necessarily.
I do agree with your last point that the war that is coming won't necessarily be a war fought with weapons but with words and ideas - that actually was the war fought by my ancestors. It wasn't a physical war but a war of ideas. But I also think that when Christians want to take their faith to a political level, they are opening that door themselves. Faith is a private matter.
As far as the laws in Canada are concerned with the issue of conscience, we have conscience laws. A doctor or a pharmacist can freely follow his or her conscience but they must give the patient information on where they can obtain the service they would deny on that basis. Canadians just don't sue like Americans do.
If you think of the different mottoes of our respective countries, there is a huge difference between us - Canadians believe in "peace, order, and good government" not "the pursuit of happiness."
We are far more willing to sacrifice an individual right that we don't really need for the good of everyone.
Layla
I think that lots of urban myths circulate the church world, and unless you can find me a link to this, I don't believe it. I Googled every imaginable combination trying to discover this story and came up with nothing.
Since many schools in Canada still say the Lord's Prayer as part of their regular school day and prayers are said in our Parliament, it just seems highly unlikely that any pastors were ever arrested for reading the Bible in their own pulpits.
I know Americans find it hard to believe but I think we have far more freedom of speech in Canada than you guys do in the US. In the first place, our titular head is the Queen of England who is also the head of the Church of England. And our Parliament opens with this prayer.
Almighty God, we give thanks for the great blessings which have been bestowed on Canada and its citizens, including the gifts of freedom, opportunity and peace that we enjoy. We pray for our Sovereign, Queen Elizabeth, and the Governor General. Guide us in our deliberations as Members of Parliament, and strengthen us in our awareness of our duties and responsibilities as Members. Grant us wisdom, knowledge, and understanding to preserve the blessings of this country for the benefit of all and to make good laws and wise decisions. Amen.
It varies from province to province, but many public schools in Canada still open with the Lord's Prayer. Freedom of religion has never meant freedom from religion as it seems to do in the US. Here's a link that provides a summary of prayer in different provinces: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/02/13/lords-prayer.html
What I think many American Christians don't realize is that freedom is a two-way street. We have same-sex marriage and that sort of tolerance also flows back to Christians who practise their religion. People just don't get their shorts in such a knot as they seem to do in the US over every mention of public prayer.
The way I see it, American Christians have shot themselves in the foot with their involvement in politics and thinking to impose their beliefs on secular Americans. When you decide that someone else's right are not important, you are also opening a door to having someone decide that your rights are not important. You set a precedent for your own rights to be taken away at someone else's whim. A door lets traffic in both ways. Maybe that is why people generally are more content to live and let live here.
In Ontario, there is now a movement underway to change the Lord's Prayer in schools, but if you read this link, then you will notice a comment by a Jew who recited the Lord's Prayer in public school and his opinion that "it hadn't changed him."
So now just how a pastor could be arrested for reading the Bible when we have prayer in our schools and in our government, is illogical. Interestingly, a recent poll stated that 33 percent of Canadians do not believe in a god whereas only 8 percent of Americans say the same. That's a big difference and yet there is far less dissension and more acceptance here with regards to religion than there is in the US.
Witness the recent Texas polygamy thing. Just how people can go into another person's home with no more than the word of a known liar and troublemaker, and take away, not one child, but four hundred plus children and say there is freedom of religion in the US is beyond me. Which isn't to say that I support polygamy or anything but I'm telling you, that if they can do that there, they can do that anywhere in the US.
Americans like to think of themselves as individualists, and yet, when it comes to alternative lifestyles, be it by way of same sex unions, polygamists or immigrants who speak their own language, Americans want everyone to fit the same cookie cutter mould. Diversity is really not celebrated or much tolerated. Everyone has to be Americanized. We think entirely differently here in Canada where multi-culturalism is celebrated, not the whole melting pot idea.
As far as same-sex attraction and it being a choice, unlike the color of your skin, I don't believe that is true. If birth defects were limited to mobility, you would have a point but people are born sometimes intersexed - as hermaphrodites. So it is possible for people to be born sexually confused in a physical sense and if so, then why is it not possible for people to be born mentally confused about sexuality? We know more than we used to about the human brain but we don't know everything. Christians can be schizophrenic, bi-polar and depressives, without ever once having chosen it in any sense of the word due to something that went wrong in their genetic makeup, so it isn't a stretch at all to think that attraction to your own sex is also the result of something beyond their control.
I am not saying that homosexuality isn't a sin according to the Bible. I am only saying that I don't buy that it is always a choice. It may be a choice for some to experiment, to play with boundaries. There have always been people who wanted to push boundaries, who are thrill seekers and expressing themselves in all sorts of different non-traditional sexual ways, whether with a menage a trois, or with their own sex can also be part of that behaviour. But not necessarily.
I do agree with your last point that the war that is coming won't necessarily be a war fought with weapons but with words and ideas - that actually was the war fought by my ancestors. It wasn't a physical war but a war of ideas. But I also think that when Christians want to take their faith to a political level, they are opening that door themselves. Faith is a private matter.
As far as the laws in Canada are concerned with the issue of conscience, we have conscience laws. A doctor or a pharmacist can freely follow his or her conscience but they must give the patient information on where they can obtain the service they would deny on that basis. Canadians just don't sue like Americans do.
If you think of the different mottoes of our respective countries, there is a huge difference between us - Canadians believe in "peace, order, and good government" not "the pursuit of happiness."
We are far more willing to sacrifice an individual right that we don't really need for the good of everyone.
Layla
Monday, June 2, 2008
Quick question/thought
Did you see that they'd found some previously uncontacted/undiscovered tribes in the Amazon?
Obviously the end isn't nigh until we get down there and spread the good news... :) But will we be allowed to? Have you noticed the cultural preseveration movement?
What are your thoughts on this?
Obviously the end isn't nigh until we get down there and spread the good news... :) But will we be allowed to? Have you noticed the cultural preseveration movement?
What are your thoughts on this?
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