It's been a while... hopefully all is well where you are.
So, here's another lifestyle thing to discuss in the Christian mindset. I know you don't have small people, but surely you have thoughts?
http://www.generationcedar.com/main/2010/05/why-christians-should-be-appalled-at-the-dating-system.html
Friday, May 7, 2010
Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Sardis or Laodicea
To branch off on end-times things, what I got this morning ... would you give me your thoughts?
I was writing up something this morning and reviewing the churches in the book of the Revelation and something caught my eye. I know that they're "supposed" to be a somewhat chronological account of the churches throughout Christendom, but ... it's obvious it's not quite chronological, as the persecuted church in, say, China, is certainly not Laodicean in the least, whereas our Western church is rife with Laodiceanness.
Or is it?
*I* am the WORST EVER for calling our church Laodicea (not my home church, it rocks, I mean the "western protestant church as a whole"). But I think I've been wrong.
Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars. I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die; for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember, therefore, how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If, therefore, thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis that have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Um. Well THAT's us, right enough. Have a name that we live, but we're really dead inside? How many "churches" does that describe. (flinch)
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die Again - we are in the time of watching intensely for our Lord's return. And I think that most of us who are educated Christians are trying HARD to strengthen what remains... "ready to die" ... again, that really describes what I've been seeing. Does anyone else feel a bit like fixing the western church (making it what it was, say, in 1898) is like bailing with a bucket with holes? We change and go on, or we die. We won't stay Sardis forever.
Now, this is what God has to say about Laodicea:
Revelation 3: 14-22 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. So, then, because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. I counsel of thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and annoint thy eyes with salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous, therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I am thinking (this is ME, not the various interpreters) that the church of Laodicea could be compared to the dying Mainline churches and somewhat to the church as it goes into the Tribulation. We know that there will be some saved during the Tribulation - and that will definitely be a trial by fire. White raiment is often described as what martyrs are given to wear. I'm definitely not saying that Laodicea is not part of the church as it exists today - far from it. I am saying that I believe that we have both Laodicea and Sardis extant in the West today. Sardis is going to get raptured out and Laodicea left to burn.
What are your thoughts? I'm excited by this food that I got this morning!
I was writing up something this morning and reviewing the churches in the book of the Revelation and something caught my eye. I know that they're "supposed" to be a somewhat chronological account of the churches throughout Christendom, but ... it's obvious it's not quite chronological, as the persecuted church in, say, China, is certainly not Laodicean in the least, whereas our Western church is rife with Laodiceanness.
Or is it?
*I* am the WORST EVER for calling our church Laodicea (not my home church, it rocks, I mean the "western protestant church as a whole"). But I think I've been wrong.
Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith he that hath the seven spirits of God, and the seven stars. I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die; for I have not found thy works perfect before God. Remember, therefore, how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If, therefore, thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis that have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white; for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. Um. Well THAT's us, right enough. Have a name that we live, but we're really dead inside? How many "churches" does that describe. (flinch)
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die Again - we are in the time of watching intensely for our Lord's return. And I think that most of us who are educated Christians are trying HARD to strengthen what remains... "ready to die" ... again, that really describes what I've been seeing. Does anyone else feel a bit like fixing the western church (making it what it was, say, in 1898) is like bailing with a bucket with holes? We change and go on, or we die. We won't stay Sardis forever.
Now, this is what God has to say about Laodicea:
Revelation 3: 14-22 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot. So, then, because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. I counsel of thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and annoint thy eyes with salve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous, therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I am thinking (this is ME, not the various interpreters) that the church of Laodicea could be compared to the dying Mainline churches and somewhat to the church as it goes into the Tribulation. We know that there will be some saved during the Tribulation - and that will definitely be a trial by fire. White raiment is often described as what martyrs are given to wear. I'm definitely not saying that Laodicea is not part of the church as it exists today - far from it. I am saying that I believe that we have both Laodicea and Sardis extant in the West today. Sardis is going to get raptured out and Laodicea left to burn.
What are your thoughts? I'm excited by this food that I got this morning!
Sunday, February 22, 2009
Addendum
Just answer a few questions that I found - and apologizing for my tone. Politics pushes buttons, which is why I prefer not to discuss it.
You'll have to give me examples of Obama being worshipped. I don't know of anything I've heard or read that indicates anything more than plays-well-with-others.
I don't know if it's still on there, but there was a video - on MSN - of numerous celebrities pledging themselves "in service to Barack Obama". By name. Americans don't pledge themselves to serve a particular person, nor do Christians. One might well pledge themselves to the service of the country at large, but an individual? It was VERY creepy. It was clearly meant to inspire "normals" to the community service that Obama pushed during his campaign, but ... um... word choice says a great deal, you know? Perhaps Canada hasn't seen or heard the cult of Obama - it diminished after the inaugeration. What interested me about this (after the first shivers of fear subsided) was not Obama in particular, but how desperate those without God are for someone to worship, someone to fix things for them. They are willing to pledge themselves, no strings attached, in public... because someone says what they want to hear. (Obama hasn't had time to prove himself one way or another). I strongly believe that the real AC will use this.
It's the reasoning or lack of it that scares me silly. See above. One of the tools that the devil is using is a total lack of education about the Bible... and about everything else. I share your fear of the lack of reasoning.
Big Brother is watching your every move and the church is applauding because you ought not to mind Big Brother watching you if you don't have anything to hide. Since there will be a faux church that morphs into the church of the AC, and which is the primary persecutor of Christians and Jews in the Tribulation, you'll have no argument from me here. I could make you a very fine list of the ways in which our liberties have already been curtailed, and another list of the conspiracy theories of how our liberties will soon be. That is on my "the end is near" list!
To answer the question baldly and then to go on... the reason that *I* did not want Obama as my president (seems like a fine guy, I don't dislike *him*) is because I don't like his friends and I don't like his voting record on certain issues close to my heart. That's it.
Hope this was helpful. And if you want me to talk to you about why I think the end is getting closer, I'm happy to do that.
You'll have to give me examples of Obama being worshipped. I don't know of anything I've heard or read that indicates anything more than plays-well-with-others.
I don't know if it's still on there, but there was a video - on MSN - of numerous celebrities pledging themselves "in service to Barack Obama". By name. Americans don't pledge themselves to serve a particular person, nor do Christians. One might well pledge themselves to the service of the country at large, but an individual? It was VERY creepy. It was clearly meant to inspire "normals" to the community service that Obama pushed during his campaign, but ... um... word choice says a great deal, you know? Perhaps Canada hasn't seen or heard the cult of Obama - it diminished after the inaugeration. What interested me about this (after the first shivers of fear subsided) was not Obama in particular, but how desperate those without God are for someone to worship, someone to fix things for them. They are willing to pledge themselves, no strings attached, in public... because someone says what they want to hear. (Obama hasn't had time to prove himself one way or another). I strongly believe that the real AC will use this.
It's the reasoning or lack of it that scares me silly. See above. One of the tools that the devil is using is a total lack of education about the Bible... and about everything else. I share your fear of the lack of reasoning.
Big Brother is watching your every move and the church is applauding because you ought not to mind Big Brother watching you if you don't have anything to hide. Since there will be a faux church that morphs into the church of the AC, and which is the primary persecutor of Christians and Jews in the Tribulation, you'll have no argument from me here. I could make you a very fine list of the ways in which our liberties have already been curtailed, and another list of the conspiracy theories of how our liberties will soon be. That is on my "the end is near" list!
To answer the question baldly and then to go on... the reason that *I* did not want Obama as my president (seems like a fine guy, I don't dislike *him*) is because I don't like his friends and I don't like his voting record on certain issues close to my heart. That's it.
Hope this was helpful. And if you want me to talk to you about why I think the end is getting closer, I'm happy to do that.
Saturday, February 21, 2009
Laodicea
I am not sure how to respond to your last post. I can feel the anger wafting off of the page... and it is justified. Yes, we live in the church of Laodicea. But I thought we were agreed on that, that the "church" in the West (America, Canada, Europe - and much of the entrenched Catholic church) was, in fact, the church of Laodicea, and not really part of the Church of Christ at all. Were we not? Had I implied otherwise?
Revelation 3: 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,
Is that NOT a description of the Western "church"? Can you NOT find a hundred sites calling for a separation of churchianity and Christianity, people who no longer even call themselves Christians, prefering to call themselves worshipers of Jesus? Do you not know that there is a very great deal of conservative anger at exactly the same target, the visible and disgustingly lukewarm "church" in America, in Canada, in Britain... are we not agreed here?
You say, "The church should do more about the poor" but *who is the church*? The church is the body of believers. It is Layla, it is Hearth. It is the churches that *we* belong to, the people that we can influence. My church DOES feed the hungry, clothe the naked, pray for the sick. And yes, it also takes a stand on the political issues that you deem inappropriate for a church to mix itself with. Why can we not be brethren, knowing that we all have battles to fight, knowing that we are meant to both be light and salt - to show what is wrong and be uncompromising in that effort as we are also love and compassion?
On the one side you say we shouldn't mix ourselves in politics, then on the other you embrace socialism over capitalism, and tell me what a bad government I have. You're holding me accountable for things I have no control over - and you're angry. You ask me why I should want other countries to embrace Pax Americana when I don't trust our government. Well, I don't think they should. Our desire to be the world's policeman, to go and make people play nicely by force of arms is one of the good intentions that has paved Hell's Highway. We support our troops - and we know that we sent them there (the PEOPLE sent them there) because we thought we could right a wrong. The reason - the exact reason - I do not trust our leaders is because they have failed to lead us in righteousness. They lie about motivations, they steal, they cheat... and then our servicemembers, who left their homes because they wanted to do the right thing, they are the ones who die. The LEADERS are getting something out of the deal... I am disgusted with Hillary Clinton, "Human rights don't take precedence over the economy"... and you ask me to trust her? Fah! They LIE TO US every day - and no one knows all the lies save Jesus. Governments will pass away. Buildings will crumble. Souls are eternal. The powerful, of whatever stripe, do not care about individual souls, but our Master does.
Do you want me to tell you what government I trust? I trust Jesus sitting on the Throne of the world. Save that? I trust my husband. I trust my *local* police. I trust the individual people. I don't trust leaders, they are corrupt. Or they're misled. We are fast falling into fascism, where "I was ordered to do it" is going to come right back around at us. If I thought I had to spend 10 more years on this planet, the direction that things are very quickly going, I'd be on my knees begging my husband to relocate us somewhere sustainable and hard to find. The conservative Christians who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are doing just that. So are some non-Christians.
This is the definition of anti-christ (lower case, the multiple antichrists, not the AC himself): 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come, and even now is already in the world. That definition lets out both Obama and GWB, both of whom have confessed Christ as their savior. They'd have to repudiate that to make either of them an antichrist.
The definition I was speaking of as far as peacemaker? The AntiChrist will declare/negotiate a seven-year peace treaty with Israel and "many nations". It does appear, in Revelation 6, that he comes forth to conquor... but he doesn't seem to do much slaughter up front. It's also clear, from Revelation, that he will come from Europe, not the United States. (In other words, Arnold goes home and maybe he can be the AC, but neither Obama nor GWB are qualified).
So, again... since I am instructed to keep watch for the day of the Lord, since I am instructed to keep busy, serving him and not going to sleep at the stove just because He isn't here right now... why are you angry that I'm watching? Am I neglecting my duties because I watch? Do you believe that of me? Come to my local church, and tell my pastor that because he's preaching Daniel this month, that he's not taking care of any poor people, that his eyes are closed to new ways to serve God and the community. I'm sure he could use a good laugh. Would you like a copy of my tax receipts, to see where I send my donations, and how much? I realise you were not trying to be personal, that you were angry at the "American Evangelical Church" But that's the point... that church is a fiction - if Hearth and Layla are not the church, then who is? *I* am an American Evangelical Christian, yes... because I am American, because I am evangelical, because I am a Christian. But what I really am is a servant to the Most High.
As far as crying wolf ... if the Jews at the time of Christ had been paying attention (and many of them were - do you know how many of the Jews in Jerusalem converted? I don't), they would have known that Jesus was the Messiah. They chucked Him because His first kingdom was the kingdom of the heart and He did not bring them physical victory. They *did* know that it was time, and if they'd believed the Bible and not their assumptions, they'd have converted.
I guess people say this person or that person could be the AC because of the same reason that I watch the sky - I am not a citizen of Earth, and I'm homesick. If the AC was here, that would mean at most I'd have seven years to hold out (that's assuming the Rapture didn't happen - I'm with my church and don't believe if we could *really* spot the AC that the Trib wouldn't have started). I know from our private conversations that you're homesick too. So? Look to the skies, look to Jesus, and keep your hands (and mine) busy. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
I can understand why you're sick of the Laodicean church of the West. But I don't get why you're annoyed with my desire to go Home, so long as it doesn't interfere with my service while I am here. (Nor do I understand why anyone who truly believed in the imminent return wouldn't be getting busy cleaning up their own lives and abiding in Christ so they could bear every bit of fruit possible before the end). I can understand why you don't care for American policies - I can even get why you might be disgusted at the fact that the "American Evangelical church" was behind GWB rather than Obama, because your priority is for social justice. I do get it. But why do you assume that I'm behind this or that I wish to argue a position that I don't hold? I neither wish to criticize nor support my brethren in Christ who have different priorities. I can only argue my *own* positions.
Ask me a specific question about my specific position and we can work through things... we have gotten too broad a brush, and there's not enough paint to go around.
Revelation 3: 17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing, and knowest not that thou are wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked,
Is that NOT a description of the Western "church"? Can you NOT find a hundred sites calling for a separation of churchianity and Christianity, people who no longer even call themselves Christians, prefering to call themselves worshipers of Jesus? Do you not know that there is a very great deal of conservative anger at exactly the same target, the visible and disgustingly lukewarm "church" in America, in Canada, in Britain... are we not agreed here?
You say, "The church should do more about the poor" but *who is the church*? The church is the body of believers. It is Layla, it is Hearth. It is the churches that *we* belong to, the people that we can influence. My church DOES feed the hungry, clothe the naked, pray for the sick. And yes, it also takes a stand on the political issues that you deem inappropriate for a church to mix itself with. Why can we not be brethren, knowing that we all have battles to fight, knowing that we are meant to both be light and salt - to show what is wrong and be uncompromising in that effort as we are also love and compassion?
On the one side you say we shouldn't mix ourselves in politics, then on the other you embrace socialism over capitalism, and tell me what a bad government I have. You're holding me accountable for things I have no control over - and you're angry. You ask me why I should want other countries to embrace Pax Americana when I don't trust our government. Well, I don't think they should. Our desire to be the world's policeman, to go and make people play nicely by force of arms is one of the good intentions that has paved Hell's Highway. We support our troops - and we know that we sent them there (the PEOPLE sent them there) because we thought we could right a wrong. The reason - the exact reason - I do not trust our leaders is because they have failed to lead us in righteousness. They lie about motivations, they steal, they cheat... and then our servicemembers, who left their homes because they wanted to do the right thing, they are the ones who die. The LEADERS are getting something out of the deal... I am disgusted with Hillary Clinton, "Human rights don't take precedence over the economy"... and you ask me to trust her? Fah! They LIE TO US every day - and no one knows all the lies save Jesus. Governments will pass away. Buildings will crumble. Souls are eternal. The powerful, of whatever stripe, do not care about individual souls, but our Master does.
Do you want me to tell you what government I trust? I trust Jesus sitting on the Throne of the world. Save that? I trust my husband. I trust my *local* police. I trust the individual people. I don't trust leaders, they are corrupt. Or they're misled. We are fast falling into fascism, where "I was ordered to do it" is going to come right back around at us. If I thought I had to spend 10 more years on this planet, the direction that things are very quickly going, I'd be on my knees begging my husband to relocate us somewhere sustainable and hard to find. The conservative Christians who do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture are doing just that. So are some non-Christians.
This is the definition of anti-christ (lower case, the multiple antichrists, not the AC himself): 1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God; and this is that spirit of antichrist, of which ye have heard that it should come, and even now is already in the world. That definition lets out both Obama and GWB, both of whom have confessed Christ as their savior. They'd have to repudiate that to make either of them an antichrist.
The definition I was speaking of as far as peacemaker? The AntiChrist will declare/negotiate a seven-year peace treaty with Israel and "many nations". It does appear, in Revelation 6, that he comes forth to conquor... but he doesn't seem to do much slaughter up front. It's also clear, from Revelation, that he will come from Europe, not the United States. (In other words, Arnold goes home and maybe he can be the AC, but neither Obama nor GWB are qualified).
So, again... since I am instructed to keep watch for the day of the Lord, since I am instructed to keep busy, serving him and not going to sleep at the stove just because He isn't here right now... why are you angry that I'm watching? Am I neglecting my duties because I watch? Do you believe that of me? Come to my local church, and tell my pastor that because he's preaching Daniel this month, that he's not taking care of any poor people, that his eyes are closed to new ways to serve God and the community. I'm sure he could use a good laugh. Would you like a copy of my tax receipts, to see where I send my donations, and how much? I realise you were not trying to be personal, that you were angry at the "American Evangelical Church" But that's the point... that church is a fiction - if Hearth and Layla are not the church, then who is? *I* am an American Evangelical Christian, yes... because I am American, because I am evangelical, because I am a Christian. But what I really am is a servant to the Most High.
As far as crying wolf ... if the Jews at the time of Christ had been paying attention (and many of them were - do you know how many of the Jews in Jerusalem converted? I don't), they would have known that Jesus was the Messiah. They chucked Him because His first kingdom was the kingdom of the heart and He did not bring them physical victory. They *did* know that it was time, and if they'd believed the Bible and not their assumptions, they'd have converted.
I guess people say this person or that person could be the AC because of the same reason that I watch the sky - I am not a citizen of Earth, and I'm homesick. If the AC was here, that would mean at most I'd have seven years to hold out (that's assuming the Rapture didn't happen - I'm with my church and don't believe if we could *really* spot the AC that the Trib wouldn't have started). I know from our private conversations that you're homesick too. So? Look to the skies, look to Jesus, and keep your hands (and mine) busy. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?
I can understand why you're sick of the Laodicean church of the West. But I don't get why you're annoyed with my desire to go Home, so long as it doesn't interfere with my service while I am here. (Nor do I understand why anyone who truly believed in the imminent return wouldn't be getting busy cleaning up their own lives and abiding in Christ so they could bear every bit of fruit possible before the end). I can understand why you don't care for American policies - I can even get why you might be disgusted at the fact that the "American Evangelical church" was behind GWB rather than Obama, because your priority is for social justice. I do get it. But why do you assume that I'm behind this or that I wish to argue a position that I don't hold? I neither wish to criticize nor support my brethren in Christ who have different priorities. I can only argue my *own* positions.
Ask me a specific question about my specific position and we can work through things... we have gotten too broad a brush, and there's not enough paint to go around.
anti-christs, politics, and christians
First off, I didn't mean any swipe at you and I'm sorry if somehow you got that impression. It was a genuine question but it might all have been poorly worded.
And yes, I know that you are one of those awaiting the Rapture and while I believe absolutely in Christ's return, I also think that you go way overboard on this like many Christians, in focusing too much on that return. Which is the gist of what I was trying to say: that Christians have a long history of crying wolf about the end of the world and the anti-Christ. Yet they were all for GWB who apparently knew enough to say all the things dear to evangelical hearts so that when there was truly a problem, they raised no hue and cry.
Yes, it does annoy me. It annoys me for the sake of the world generally, who has leaders imposed on it, via American elections. Your elections don't just impact you. When Jesus said "the poor you will always have with you" I believe he was stating a fact, not a path to follow to keep the poor poor. The anticipation of the end times ought not to become so foremost in our minds that we neglect to be our brothers' keepers.
This is why I believe Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. They/we (and I include all Christians, not just American Christians) don't have a great history of backing what is right which in turn reflects on Christianity and Christians as a whole.
I give as my example for my concern the Jews in Jesus' time who also were so focused on the end of the world, and what they thought the messiah would be or should be, that he entered unnoticed, in a stable, with no place to lay his head.
And I beg to differ that my post was primarily political. If it seems so, it is only because Americans involve God in their politics. If America was a nation where the subject of a candidate's faith didn't come up, or if America was a banana republic who had no impact on the rest of the world, it wouldn't matter.
I also don't agree that the anti-christ must be universally adored. GWB was not hated by the rest of the world until he took the world into his wars with largely the blessing of the evangelical community in the US. For example the quote describing the anti-Christ as "who is like unto the beast and who is able to make war with him" isn't necessarily about adoration. It is about fear. It is about being powerless in the face of a power who has the ability to do exactly what it wants to do and to hell with you.
Pax Romana was not about a peaceful Rome, but about a Rome so powerful no one could stand up to it, a Rome who in many ways brought law and order (their form of law and order) to the world. There's very little about ancient Rome and its dealings with countries it occupied that can't be said about the US and Rome was a form of an anti-christ state. Rome was not loved.
As far as "The AC is going to be someone universally adored, someone riding in on false pretenses of peace, someone who people will literally worship - and not all of them will have to be forced to do that."
Are you thinking of the prophecy in Daniel, where the anti-christ is said to "magnify himself in his own heart" and "by peace shall destroy many?"
Because in terms of an anti-christ, peace does not mean peace in the sense of turning the other cheek. That verse refers to the Roman policy of overwhelming force so that no one is able to fight back. That is what it means by peace destroying many. Again, rather like US foreign policy. Peace doesn't mean peace in the sense of the peaceful, when it comes at the point of a gun. Further in Daniel there is a verse that says that this anti-christ will 'divide the land for gain.' Another way of saying, American interests are paramount, not actual matters of unjust regimes. I only use the US as an example because it is *the* world power. Again, pretty much GWB's entire foreign policy.
My point is not to blacken the name of GWB but to point out the inconsistencies in how too many American Christians view their political leaders. GWB is not the anti-christ. As far as I know, no one claimed he was either. But there are folks who would have those suspicions of Obama when so far, there is far less to go on. And THAT is what I don't understand. A year or two or three from now, if Obama doesn't make a drastic change to how the US operates in the world, and pursues the idea of an imperial America, I may well have a list for him to equal a list for GWB.
The names, the individuals don't matter. That isn't the point. The point is - for me - and it is upsetting to me as a Christian - Christian involvement in politics, when it could as easily have been GWB the Anti-Christ, as Obama the Anti-Christ. It's the reasoning or lack of it that scares me silly. In our previous discussion about socialism and capitalism, you made the point that Americans don't trust their government. If you don't, why should the rest of the world be thrilled over the idea of an exported American democracy whom its own citizens don't trust to act in its citizens' best interests?
Kings in ancient times often wanted to be worshipped. Like Nebuchadnezzar for example, with his statues of himself that Daniel refused to bow down to. But I don't see that the fact that people obey a despot means a despot is loved. I think it starts with little things, like basic freedoms being taken away in the name of saving the world for democracy American-style, and before you know it, Big Brother is watching your every move and the church is applauding because you ought not to mind Big Brother watching you if you don't have anything to hide.
I don't see where the anti-christ therefore has to be loved.
As far as Obama is concerned, does being a likable guy who seems to realize that the world does not wish to conform to American standards make him a bad guy? GWB alienated every bit of good will in the world that he could have used for something good. As Christians, are we only to trust leaders who can't play well with others in order to avoid accidently praising a potential anti-Christ?
My personal way to deal with that is to absent myself from politics when it comes to things like voting because I know people can be easily, easily fooled. Obama could be the anti-christ. GWB could also have been the anti-Christ. How stupid wouldn't the church have looked then at the judgement seat of the Most High explaining how they'd bought a bill of goods?
Therefore, in times which I agree are troubled, I value caution and wait-and-see and don't advocate anyone politically. These are however, not the first troubled times mankind has known.
You'll have to give me examples of Obama being worshipped. I don't know of anything I've heard or read that indicates anything more than plays-well-with-others.
The only thing I've seen, as a non-American, wrt how the rest of the world sees Obama is that he has one endearing quality that supersedes all others: he is not GWB. The world really suffered for eight years under a man who was either a fool or misguided so badly that one circles right back around to fool.
That is all it is. Obama feels to "us" - if I may take the liberty of speaking for the non-American world - like a normal person. As if he's aware that the US can't continue to act unilaterally. So people are prepared to give him a chance while still remaining as wary of America and American foreign policy as always. Obama is well-travelled, he has a world view that isn't buried in America. He is more of a world citizen as opposed to the "Ugly American Abroad" personality that GWB presented.
So "the world" broadly speaking, can relate to him in a way that they have never been able to relate to Americans who are too American. They are willing to give him a break - nothing more. The world generally doesn't trust America and it will take more than having a nice president to get the world to change its mind. It's more along the lines of "he seems like a nice guy but we'll wait and see."
Have I explained better? I certainly am not trying to be snide or swipe at anyone. What I want is the American church to sit up and pay attention to what it's doing, and what it is doing to itself in supporting or voicing support for anyone at all politically. If Christians are 'brothers and sisters' then that relationship should supersede nationality and Christians who are not Americans are put off by the mingling of politics, secular notions of freedom instead of the freedom that Christ gives us. It's alienating. And I don't think that is right at all.
I'd be happier to have used a Canadian example in order to avoid being called anti-American but Canada is not on the world stage. A Canadian anti-christ would be really really .... strange. Who would listen? What army would back it up?
And yes, I know that you are one of those awaiting the Rapture and while I believe absolutely in Christ's return, I also think that you go way overboard on this like many Christians, in focusing too much on that return. Which is the gist of what I was trying to say: that Christians have a long history of crying wolf about the end of the world and the anti-Christ. Yet they were all for GWB who apparently knew enough to say all the things dear to evangelical hearts so that when there was truly a problem, they raised no hue and cry.
Yes, it does annoy me. It annoys me for the sake of the world generally, who has leaders imposed on it, via American elections. Your elections don't just impact you. When Jesus said "the poor you will always have with you" I believe he was stating a fact, not a path to follow to keep the poor poor. The anticipation of the end times ought not to become so foremost in our minds that we neglect to be our brothers' keepers.
This is why I believe Christians shouldn't be involved in politics. They/we (and I include all Christians, not just American Christians) don't have a great history of backing what is right which in turn reflects on Christianity and Christians as a whole.
I give as my example for my concern the Jews in Jesus' time who also were so focused on the end of the world, and what they thought the messiah would be or should be, that he entered unnoticed, in a stable, with no place to lay his head.
And I beg to differ that my post was primarily political. If it seems so, it is only because Americans involve God in their politics. If America was a nation where the subject of a candidate's faith didn't come up, or if America was a banana republic who had no impact on the rest of the world, it wouldn't matter.
I also don't agree that the anti-christ must be universally adored. GWB was not hated by the rest of the world until he took the world into his wars with largely the blessing of the evangelical community in the US. For example the quote describing the anti-Christ as "who is like unto the beast and who is able to make war with him" isn't necessarily about adoration. It is about fear. It is about being powerless in the face of a power who has the ability to do exactly what it wants to do and to hell with you.
Pax Romana was not about a peaceful Rome, but about a Rome so powerful no one could stand up to it, a Rome who in many ways brought law and order (their form of law and order) to the world. There's very little about ancient Rome and its dealings with countries it occupied that can't be said about the US and Rome was a form of an anti-christ state. Rome was not loved.
As far as "The AC is going to be someone universally adored, someone riding in on false pretenses of peace, someone who people will literally worship - and not all of them will have to be forced to do that."
Are you thinking of the prophecy in Daniel, where the anti-christ is said to "magnify himself in his own heart" and "by peace shall destroy many?"
Because in terms of an anti-christ, peace does not mean peace in the sense of turning the other cheek. That verse refers to the Roman policy of overwhelming force so that no one is able to fight back. That is what it means by peace destroying many. Again, rather like US foreign policy. Peace doesn't mean peace in the sense of the peaceful, when it comes at the point of a gun. Further in Daniel there is a verse that says that this anti-christ will 'divide the land for gain.' Another way of saying, American interests are paramount, not actual matters of unjust regimes. I only use the US as an example because it is *the* world power. Again, pretty much GWB's entire foreign policy.
My point is not to blacken the name of GWB but to point out the inconsistencies in how too many American Christians view their political leaders. GWB is not the anti-christ. As far as I know, no one claimed he was either. But there are folks who would have those suspicions of Obama when so far, there is far less to go on. And THAT is what I don't understand. A year or two or three from now, if Obama doesn't make a drastic change to how the US operates in the world, and pursues the idea of an imperial America, I may well have a list for him to equal a list for GWB.
The names, the individuals don't matter. That isn't the point. The point is - for me - and it is upsetting to me as a Christian - Christian involvement in politics, when it could as easily have been GWB the Anti-Christ, as Obama the Anti-Christ. It's the reasoning or lack of it that scares me silly. In our previous discussion about socialism and capitalism, you made the point that Americans don't trust their government. If you don't, why should the rest of the world be thrilled over the idea of an exported American democracy whom its own citizens don't trust to act in its citizens' best interests?
Kings in ancient times often wanted to be worshipped. Like Nebuchadnezzar for example, with his statues of himself that Daniel refused to bow down to. But I don't see that the fact that people obey a despot means a despot is loved. I think it starts with little things, like basic freedoms being taken away in the name of saving the world for democracy American-style, and before you know it, Big Brother is watching your every move and the church is applauding because you ought not to mind Big Brother watching you if you don't have anything to hide.
I don't see where the anti-christ therefore has to be loved.
As far as Obama is concerned, does being a likable guy who seems to realize that the world does not wish to conform to American standards make him a bad guy? GWB alienated every bit of good will in the world that he could have used for something good. As Christians, are we only to trust leaders who can't play well with others in order to avoid accidently praising a potential anti-Christ?
My personal way to deal with that is to absent myself from politics when it comes to things like voting because I know people can be easily, easily fooled. Obama could be the anti-christ. GWB could also have been the anti-Christ. How stupid wouldn't the church have looked then at the judgement seat of the Most High explaining how they'd bought a bill of goods?
Therefore, in times which I agree are troubled, I value caution and wait-and-see and don't advocate anyone politically. These are however, not the first troubled times mankind has known.
You'll have to give me examples of Obama being worshipped. I don't know of anything I've heard or read that indicates anything more than plays-well-with-others.
The only thing I've seen, as a non-American, wrt how the rest of the world sees Obama is that he has one endearing quality that supersedes all others: he is not GWB. The world really suffered for eight years under a man who was either a fool or misguided so badly that one circles right back around to fool.
That is all it is. Obama feels to "us" - if I may take the liberty of speaking for the non-American world - like a normal person. As if he's aware that the US can't continue to act unilaterally. So people are prepared to give him a chance while still remaining as wary of America and American foreign policy as always. Obama is well-travelled, he has a world view that isn't buried in America. He is more of a world citizen as opposed to the "Ugly American Abroad" personality that GWB presented.
So "the world" broadly speaking, can relate to him in a way that they have never been able to relate to Americans who are too American. They are willing to give him a break - nothing more. The world generally doesn't trust America and it will take more than having a nice president to get the world to change its mind. It's more along the lines of "he seems like a nice guy but we'll wait and see."
Have I explained better? I certainly am not trying to be snide or swipe at anyone. What I want is the American church to sit up and pay attention to what it's doing, and what it is doing to itself in supporting or voicing support for anyone at all politically. If Christians are 'brothers and sisters' then that relationship should supersede nationality and Christians who are not Americans are put off by the mingling of politics, secular notions of freedom instead of the freedom that Christ gives us. It's alienating. And I don't think that is right at all.
I'd be happier to have used a Canadian example in order to avoid being called anti-American but Canada is not on the world stage. A Canadian anti-christ would be really really .... strange. Who would listen? What army would back it up?
Wow
Hmm... first off, yes - most of your last post was really political, and I'm going to ignore that bit of it, because I really don't want to get into it with you ... or anyone.
As for GWB, why would he be the Anti-Christ? No one LIKES him. The AC is going to be someone universally adored, someone riding in on false pretenses of peace, someone who people will literally worship - and not all of them will have to be forced to do that. So, that's why I think some folks thought Obama might be the "one". And yeah, that ad was a little silly, but /shrug - aren't political ads mostly trash?
And, um... *I* am one of those people who are looking for the imminent return of Christ and *I* am expecting to be raptured out - rather soon - and do see lots of signs that this will happen in the near future. So - maybe it's just me being PMSy, but ouch. You sound pretty annoyed at us for some reason?
Sure GWB did a lot to set up anti-liberty things. Obama will, I am sure, follow right along on this path. I actually sat down and wrote out "why Obama can't be the AC" for my own use, I got nervous enough at the worship he is inspiring in others. (There are several good reasons). Likewise, there are several good reasons to see that we are not yet in the tribulation, though things are getting very dicey.
I would, from my own reading amongst those looking for the trib, say that no one really thinks people are planning to run to Canada, we'd entirely agree that those spy planes are going to be turned on us. I read a lot of interesting things - it's occasionally hard to sift the hysteria and made-up from the truth. I've read about prisons and things ready to be used on American citizens... oh, all kinds of nastiness. (Which would fall under, "when the Trib comes").
So. I don't think Obama is the antichrist. I don't know anyone who does think that.
More specific questions, perhaps? I'm pretty well-read on this issue, so happy to elaborate.
(Blogger is being uncooperative about showing the last post while I type this one so I have lost everything but the gist of the argument).
As for GWB, why would he be the Anti-Christ? No one LIKES him. The AC is going to be someone universally adored, someone riding in on false pretenses of peace, someone who people will literally worship - and not all of them will have to be forced to do that. So, that's why I think some folks thought Obama might be the "one". And yeah, that ad was a little silly, but /shrug - aren't political ads mostly trash?
And, um... *I* am one of those people who are looking for the imminent return of Christ and *I* am expecting to be raptured out - rather soon - and do see lots of signs that this will happen in the near future. So - maybe it's just me being PMSy, but ouch. You sound pretty annoyed at us for some reason?
Sure GWB did a lot to set up anti-liberty things. Obama will, I am sure, follow right along on this path. I actually sat down and wrote out "why Obama can't be the AC" for my own use, I got nervous enough at the worship he is inspiring in others. (There are several good reasons). Likewise, there are several good reasons to see that we are not yet in the tribulation, though things are getting very dicey.
I would, from my own reading amongst those looking for the trib, say that no one really thinks people are planning to run to Canada, we'd entirely agree that those spy planes are going to be turned on us. I read a lot of interesting things - it's occasionally hard to sift the hysteria and made-up from the truth. I've read about prisons and things ready to be used on American citizens... oh, all kinds of nastiness. (Which would fall under, "when the Trib comes").
So. I don't think Obama is the antichrist. I don't know anyone who does think that.
More specific questions, perhaps? I'm pretty well-read on this issue, so happy to elaborate.
(Blogger is being uncooperative about showing the last post while I type this one so I have lost everything but the gist of the argument).
Obama the Anti-Christ
Sorry to have been gone so long. As you know, life has been a little hectic for me lately. I did have some thoughts with regard to your last post, but I think I'll just leave that for now with the comment that I think that some of the differences we have there are in how you call certain things "soft" capitalism versus hard capitalism. One could also call it "soft" socialism versus hard socialism, the difference being only in the choice of words, which is why I think it is important to define what one means when one uses certain words.
I have a different bee in my bonnet today, partly brought on by President Obama's recent visit to Canada. In Canada he has personal approval ratings of 81 percent, a figure that is pretty well average for countries outside the US.
During the election, I heard (probably the last to hear it too) about the McCain internet ad about how Obama is "the One" with it's clear intent to associate Obama with the Anti-Christ and play to the fears and prejudices of evangelical Christians.
Now I like Obama. I am a huge fan of the man. But what I wonder about is why it is that Christians of a certain stripe are so ready to allow themselves to be manipulated with crap like Obama is really a Muslim (as if it matters, sheesh! So much for freedom of religion!)
Now I don't let myself get all caught up in what seems almost like a game to me, for certain Christians to be constantly anticipating the end of the world and the Rapture. There's a difference between believing in the certain hope that our Lord Jesus Christ will return and coming up with Christian bogeymen and conspiracy theories, which if I may suggest, could well cause those who believe in an Anti-Christ, a Rapture and the end of the world, to miss all the real signs because they are busy chasing their own prejudices.
However, what I don't get is why weren't American Christians who are suspicious now of Obama suspicious of George W. Bush being the Anti-Christ? Or were they and I just didn't hear about it, not being in the anticipating-the-end-of-the-world game?
As I understand the whole end-of-the-world scenario many evangelicals believe in, GWB fulfilled a lot more of the - um - qualifications. His foreign policy consisted in the belief that American values are world values - or should be. That rule of the people by the people counted only as long as "the people" wanted the values that GWB thought they should want. He sent forces to the land that historically has been associated with the Anti-Christ - Iraq, the site of ancient Babylon and as far as the rest of the world is concerned, "by peace, destroyed many."
GWB never showed mercy when he was governor of Texas to any death row prisoner, and took his "my way or the highway" ideas all the way to deliberately circumventing the right of prisoners to a fair trial as is shown in Gitmo. Some example of standing up for "freedom and democracy." A democratic society, a free society, has no need to circumvent its own laws in order to unlawfully hold prisoners, denying them any defense.
How is the rest of the world not supposed to have seen America then as an evil empire when the government preaches "freedom" but denies that freedom when it suits its purposes?
And all the while Americans' own rights were being whittled away in the name of preventing another 9/11. They've now got a Predator (I think it is called a Predator) plane flying the border between the US and the Canadian province of Manitoba. It's a spy plane that can tell what's on the ground. Supposedly it is for stopping any drug smuggling and illegal border crossings and such things.
I have no doubt there is some drug smuggling going on. It's a long border there through thick woods and swamps and lakes and whatnot, but Manitoba is a nothing province. No big time anything. We have had a couple of Americans crossing illegally into Canada from that border the last couple of years. Due to the terrain and the weather, they were very grateful to be found by our police in time for their lives to be saved by our socialized health care system. It is so isolated, you can't just walk across the border in either direction and find yourself in a town. Without being found, you have a better chance of dying than actually making it anywhere at all.
For the sake of one drug smuggler a year being caught, it hardly seems worth a ten million dollar investment. And it hardly seems worth the violation .of privacy to have a spy plane that can track every movement for ten kilometers on either side of the border.
It makes me think of the Berlin Wall and how the Communists told their people it was to keep them safe from all the folks on the western side who might want to illegally enter the DDR. Yeah, right. Canadians will not be flooding the border trying to get out of Canada, and given the erosion of freedom in the US, freedoms that actually count as opposed to freedoms that don't, it would be pretty easy to turn those planes on their own people, to prevent Americans from escaping a right-wing fascist government. Anything used to keep people out, can also be used to keep people in.
I'm not saying GWB is THE Anti-Christ (Cheney just might be, on the other hand *said tongue in cheek*) but it seems to me that given what he did, evangelical Christians should have been all worried about him being the Anti-Christ and yet many evangelicals supported him and his policies, as though he was a small "m" messiah.
I suppose you will think that this is about politics more than religion, but it's not, although I may have worded my thoughts poorly. The gist of what I'm trying to say/ask, is how it is that evangelicals pick one over the other as fitting the idea of an Anti-Christ. In terms of what Jesus said about there being "many" anti-christs, how does GWB not qualify for that job description?
I have a different bee in my bonnet today, partly brought on by President Obama's recent visit to Canada. In Canada he has personal approval ratings of 81 percent, a figure that is pretty well average for countries outside the US.
During the election, I heard (probably the last to hear it too) about the McCain internet ad about how Obama is "the One" with it's clear intent to associate Obama with the Anti-Christ and play to the fears and prejudices of evangelical Christians.
Now I like Obama. I am a huge fan of the man. But what I wonder about is why it is that Christians of a certain stripe are so ready to allow themselves to be manipulated with crap like Obama is really a Muslim (as if it matters, sheesh! So much for freedom of religion!)
Now I don't let myself get all caught up in what seems almost like a game to me, for certain Christians to be constantly anticipating the end of the world and the Rapture. There's a difference between believing in the certain hope that our Lord Jesus Christ will return and coming up with Christian bogeymen and conspiracy theories, which if I may suggest, could well cause those who believe in an Anti-Christ, a Rapture and the end of the world, to miss all the real signs because they are busy chasing their own prejudices.
However, what I don't get is why weren't American Christians who are suspicious now of Obama suspicious of George W. Bush being the Anti-Christ? Or were they and I just didn't hear about it, not being in the anticipating-the-end-of-the-world game?
As I understand the whole end-of-the-world scenario many evangelicals believe in, GWB fulfilled a lot more of the - um - qualifications. His foreign policy consisted in the belief that American values are world values - or should be. That rule of the people by the people counted only as long as "the people" wanted the values that GWB thought they should want. He sent forces to the land that historically has been associated with the Anti-Christ - Iraq, the site of ancient Babylon and as far as the rest of the world is concerned, "by peace, destroyed many."
GWB never showed mercy when he was governor of Texas to any death row prisoner, and took his "my way or the highway" ideas all the way to deliberately circumventing the right of prisoners to a fair trial as is shown in Gitmo. Some example of standing up for "freedom and democracy." A democratic society, a free society, has no need to circumvent its own laws in order to unlawfully hold prisoners, denying them any defense.
How is the rest of the world not supposed to have seen America then as an evil empire when the government preaches "freedom" but denies that freedom when it suits its purposes?
And all the while Americans' own rights were being whittled away in the name of preventing another 9/11. They've now got a Predator (I think it is called a Predator) plane flying the border between the US and the Canadian province of Manitoba. It's a spy plane that can tell what's on the ground. Supposedly it is for stopping any drug smuggling and illegal border crossings and such things.
I have no doubt there is some drug smuggling going on. It's a long border there through thick woods and swamps and lakes and whatnot, but Manitoba is a nothing province. No big time anything. We have had a couple of Americans crossing illegally into Canada from that border the last couple of years. Due to the terrain and the weather, they were very grateful to be found by our police in time for their lives to be saved by our socialized health care system. It is so isolated, you can't just walk across the border in either direction and find yourself in a town. Without being found, you have a better chance of dying than actually making it anywhere at all.
For the sake of one drug smuggler a year being caught, it hardly seems worth a ten million dollar investment. And it hardly seems worth the violation .of privacy to have a spy plane that can track every movement for ten kilometers on either side of the border.
It makes me think of the Berlin Wall and how the Communists told their people it was to keep them safe from all the folks on the western side who might want to illegally enter the DDR. Yeah, right. Canadians will not be flooding the border trying to get out of Canada, and given the erosion of freedom in the US, freedoms that actually count as opposed to freedoms that don't, it would be pretty easy to turn those planes on their own people, to prevent Americans from escaping a right-wing fascist government. Anything used to keep people out, can also be used to keep people in.
I'm not saying GWB is THE Anti-Christ (Cheney just might be, on the other hand *said tongue in cheek*) but it seems to me that given what he did, evangelical Christians should have been all worried about him being the Anti-Christ and yet many evangelicals supported him and his policies, as though he was a small "m" messiah.
I suppose you will think that this is about politics more than religion, but it's not, although I may have worded my thoughts poorly. The gist of what I'm trying to say/ask, is how it is that evangelicals pick one over the other as fitting the idea of an Anti-Christ. In terms of what Jesus said about there being "many" anti-christs, how does GWB not qualify for that job description?
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